The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
MrMidwest
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/8/05
#1The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 7:37am
"It may be true that straight women are unwelcome in gay bars or clubs (although, this has not been the case in my experience.) However, I remain unconvinced that the exclusion of straight people from gay spaces would rightly be called an example of "gay male sexism," or "gay male privilege." In fact, unsaid in critiquing gay male spaces for their failure to include straight women is that gay clubs shouldn't actually exist -- there should just be "clubs." Gay male spaces don't exist for the purpose of excluding straight women, or to make them feel "left out." The point of gay clubs is for gay people to come together and be around other gay people; because there is limited space, each straight woman there means one less gay person there. Moreover, he fails to elucidate why, exactly, so many straight women want to go to gay clubs -- this ties in to the author's general mischaracterization of the gay male-straight female relationship."
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#2The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 8:46am
" The point of gay clubs is for gay people to come together and be around other gay people; because there is limited space, each straight woman there means one less gay person there."
That seems a little ridiculous to me. And maybe that's the point of gay clubs for the author. But for me going to gay clubs was never really about being around other gay people, it was about going to a place where I could freely be who I was.
MrMidwest
Broadway Legend Joined: 2/8/05
#2The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 8:48am
Erik, for people in certain places, gay clubs/bars might be one of the only places they can go to meet other gay people.
So I don't think it's that out there.
#3The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 9:01am
I understand that, that's why I qualified it with "for me". But are there really that many gay clubs, even in the middle of the country, that get over run with women so gay men get denied entrance? Actually when I've traveled outside of the NY metro area I find gay clubs to be much more inclusive of women and different types of people in general.
It's weird that the author says there should be only clubs, not gay or straight ones, but then spends the rest of his article arguing against that.
#4The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 9:19am
Pittsburgh has 14 gay bars, which for the size of the city and a median age a few years higher than the national average, is respectable, and I can't think of a single bar that isn't fairly to extremely inclusive of genders and sexual identities.
Both authors generalize hugely to make their points, but speaking as someone who qualifies as a "wallflower," these are common tropes and types I observe every time I'm out, and they do feel like the majority.
That doesn't make them "truths." They're also just louder.
#5The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 9:19am
I've always considered the main purpose of gay clubs to be a safety screening method. Straight people can go up to anyone they like in the market and hit on them without fear of a major negative reaction or violence, even. I can't go up to any man in the market. I might get punched if it's a homophobic straight man. This was worse when I was young. But still a reality today (at least my fear is still a reality today.)
Back when I was young, every man, gay or straight, would have reacted badly to being hit on by a man in the market. Straights were mostly homophobic back then and gays would be paranoid that they were being set up. So for me, gay clubs exist because they have to. Otherwise, we wouldn't have a way to safely meet other potential mates/dates.
If you just had clubs for everyone, you wouldn't know who you could cruise or hit on. And if you buy a drink for a guy down the bar, but turns out he's straight...waste of $$.
Secondary to that for me, but probably more important now, is to have a meeting place where you can let your guard down and be as gay as you want among your own kind.
If you just had clubs for everyone, you wouldn't know who you could cruise or hit on.
#7The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 10:27am
Which is NOT the same as blaming "Looking," for the record.
#8The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 10:30am
I hang out in straight bars and gay bars. A lot of my straight friends have also gone with me to gay bars/clubs.
I get hit on more by females in straight clubs/bars than I do by gay men in a gay bar/club. Weird....just my luck.
#9The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 10:58am
masc
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#11The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 12:25pm
There's a lot to unpack here. I'm just gonna ramble, as I'm not sure my thoughts have a single, overarching theme.
Perhaps it's a Midwestern thing, but with the exception of your clubs with back rooms (and not even all of them), I've never experienced women having trouble at a gay bars. As for the "I'm a woman so I'm having trouble getting served at a gay bar" and I'll raise you an "I'm average looking and I often have trouble getting served at a gay bar." Trust me, I've been in bars where I've had to jump up and down to get service after being ignored for others (men AND women) for fifteen minutes. If you're used to a bar world of Ladies Nights and whatnot, perhaps it is kind if jarring, but again, while I know gay bars that make women feel unwelcome exist (as do lesbian bars that make gay men feel unwelcome), I just don't think this is a widespread problem. Also, some bars just suck, period.
Should women be treated like crap just for being a woman at a gay bar? Absolutely not. But should women expect special treatment or to be fawned upon for patronizing a place that really isn't theirs (when there's an entire world for straight people out there to move about as they please)? No. Expecting that IS privilege.
I also have to reject the notion that all gay men get to move through the world taking all the advantages male privilege has to offer. Does it happen? Sure. But those sort of blanket pronouncements tend to ignore a subset of gay men who fall on the less "masculine" (and god, do I hate that loaded word) end of the scale, those if us who can't just walk down any street without fear of reprisal from a stranger because of the way we walk or the way we talk. That kind of male privilege only exists mainly for the butch or the (ugh) "straight-acting."
As a gay man, I've spent my life reading articles that say "men this" and "men that" and I realize that the vast majority of the time they are talking about straight men. To be a gay man is to often be invisible within any sort of larger conversation. Straight is the default, the assumption, and it's often frustrating to be at an intersection that puts one on the defensive for all heinous things perpetuated by both the gay AND straight folks of one's gender, when many of us DO give a sh*t about the struggles of women, and African-Americans and the myriad other groups that exist beyond our own navels.
At this point let me state that I am NOT attempting to rank oppression or trying to assert that one group's is more valid that another's. Gay men who feel entitled to grab women's bodies without permission are disgusting assholes, no question. Women who look to gay men to be their pets or accessories or who feel some kind of entitlement to "their gays" are assholes, too. I'm just not convinced that either of these types if people are the majority and I won't take responsibility for all sh*tty gay male behavior any more than I expect women to take responsibility for a all sh*tty women's behavior.
All this isn't to day that there aren't awful gay misogynists, but I swear stuff like that Jezebel screed linked in the article that Mr. Midwest posted exist just to give voice to the latent homophobia that many straight people (men and women alike) are allowed to let go unchecked and unexamined, because of THEIR privilege. One of the very first comments trots out the canard that gay men (ALL gay men because, you know, just like every other group out there who share a similar trait, that means we are ALL THE SAME) are responsible for women's effed up body images and the unreasonable standards to live up to because, you know, fashion. As a gay man who couldn't give two sh*ts about fashion AND as a gay man who personally prefers his men on the chunky side, I reject any notion that women being expected to have thin and/or "boyish" bodies has to do with any sort of standard perpetuated by the gay community at large. But, damn, some straight people will jump at ANY opportunity to get some deep simmering homophobia off their chests, won't they?
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 12:25 PM
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#13The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 12:43pm
I don't agree that gay men who want to reserve gay male clubs - or gay male neighborhoods - for gay men are exercising in gay male privilege. I happen to be a gay man who doesn't share their outlook on the subject. I'm fine with straight people going to gay clubs (and gay people going to straight clubs), and there being clubs where gay and straight people can commune together. I'm also fine with assimilation and people living together rather than in ghettos, in fact I much prefer it.
However, I don't think the position of gay men who disagree is nec. an expression of an exclusionary /entitled enjoyment of a privileged attitude; often it's a desire for safe space, a sense of community and a place to feel free.
Still, as a gay man I also can't agree that "gay male privilege" is a myth (in the sense of a manufactured trope or made up accusation; on a different plane of thought, gay male privilege is something that may have mythic Joseph Campbell-ish dimensions, but that's another discussion entirely).
I am far too familiar with many gay men whose outlook on life - often though by no means always women-hating - and others is one of exclusionary entitled them-v-us superiority. In this sense of the word, there is gay male privilege, just as there is a similar kind of privileged sensibility shared by some members of almost all cultures, subcultures and communities.
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 12:43 PM
#14The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 12:48pm
Should women be treated like crap just for being a woman at a gay bar? Absolutely not. But should women expect special treatment or to be fawned upon for patronizing a place that really isn't theirs (when there's an entire world for straight people out there to move about as they please)? No. Expecting that IS privilege.
In my experience the women who go to the gay bars and act as if they deserve special treatment most likely display that behavior everywhere they go. It's not exclusive to any setting. I don't see the issue with allowing women to go to "gay bars" in an effort to escape the "burlishness" of the bar/club scene. But I also know that nobody wants a gaggle of drunk hooches screaming and hanging all over them because it's "safe". I can see both sides of it but I don't think excluding a group is the answer.
I pretty much always have trouble getting served at a bar no matter where I go so it doesn't really make much difference to me. I don't expect anything special for being a woman. I is what I is.
FindingNamo
Broadway Legend Joined: 7/22/03
#15The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 12:51pm
Phyllis, your "ramble" is more concise and nuanced than the typical gender theorist's in that you don't pick a stance and paint yourself into a corner in order to make a single point universal. Bravao.
Tom1071
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/1/04
#16The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 12:54pm
I don't mind women being in gay bars as long as they aren't the kind that become drunk screaming messes that are desperately trying to be the life of the party or in some instances try to****block their gay friends. Gay men (and I don't mean all gay men) can be enough drama in and of themselves. A couple of bars that I frequent in Hell's Kitchen on the weekend will always have a lot of women there in the early part of the night but by 2:00 am they have all pretty much cleared out with the exception of maybe 1 or 2.
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 12:54 PM
#17The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:09pm
Some of my closest friends are female and I hang out with them in straight bars and they've hung out with me in gay bars. I have noticed that when they come with me to a certain bar in Chelsea *coughBOXERScough* I get the nastiest looks and attitude, but never from the bar staff.
#18The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:17pm
And that's why no one ever should ever go to Boxers ever.
Tom1071
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/1/04
#19The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:22pm
Not saying that it's right, but there is something about Boxers that feels exclusively male. I can count on 1 hand the number of times I have been to Boxers HK but I don't recall having ever seen any women in there. I've never seen any women at GYM in Chelsea either.
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 01:22 PM
#20The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:32pm
Phyllis...your post made more sense than either of the articles this post was originally about.
And I've seen lots of women at Gym bar in Chelsea. Especially after Gotham volleyball matches.
Tom1071
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/1/04
#21The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:40pm
I have been to GYM less than 10 times since it opened and there weren't any women present on those occasions. I didn't mean to overspeak.
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 01:40 PM
henrikegerman
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/29/05
#22The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 1:58pm
"I don't mind women being in gay bars as long as they aren't the kind that become drunk screaming messes that are desperately trying to be the life of the party or in some instances try to****block their gay friends."
I agree, but I also don't like gay men in gay bars who become drunk screaming messes that are desperately trying to be the life of the party or in some instances try to cockblock their gay friends.
Updated On: 1/28/14 at 01:58 PM
#23The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 2:02pm
I agree, but I also don't like gay men in gay bars who become drunk screaming messes that are desperately trying to be the life of the party or in some instances try to cockblock their gay friends.
I had a friend like this. Nice guy, until he had a couple of drinks then he felt not only obligated to let everyone within earshot know he knew every word to every song that was playing but took it upon himself to do his own choreography...the guy was a hot @ss mess on a cold plate...I had to dis-associate myself from him...it wasn't good for my image.
Phyllis Rogers Stone
Broadway Legend Joined: 9/16/07
#24The Myth of 'Gay Male Privilege'
Posted: 1/28/14 at 2:24pmOne thing I've learned today is that a lot of gay people need new friends.
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