The second U.S. Civil War- Page 2

[Roscoe]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 2:19pm

I doubt there'll be anything as organized as a Civil War as such. I do think the wackos will get wackier, and there are almost certainly some big ugly acts of domestic terror in our future.

[romantico]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 2:24pm

You are right Taz, I am an alarmist. I don't know if Civil War is the right term to use but something.I get alarmed when I see armed citizens at a Presidential event. I get alarmed when I hear TV Entertainers like Glen Beck, who has already lost 57 advertisers get strong viewers and his listeners believe everything he says as if it is the truth. I get alarmed when I see these nuts come out in force and do as they are told as if they have no mind of their own and are not interested in facts. I am alarmed at the stupidity of some in this country.Bill Maher is right when he talks about the stupidity of the American People.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LZcN4Qf3Y

Updated On: 9/3/09 at 02:24 PM

[Eris0303]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 2:39pm

And what do they think will happen once they secede? They have no army as any military instillations are sure to be removed from their states. They have no peace agreements with any other countries. They would be, essentially, sitting ducks. Any country that hates us and yet fears our "might" will see it as an opportunity to strike out at us without actually striking out at us. The states that secede will have to turn to us for help and they'll be no better off than they are now.

Anyone who thinks seceding is the answer is nuts.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 2:41pm

I do not think their nuttiness is in question!

[nygrl232]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 3:03pm

Nah, I doubt it. If mommy and daddy split up, who'll get the custody of Mexico's new found oil?

[broadwaytourist]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 5:01pm

It is my m-o not to give heed to what the other side has to say. Last Frday I was having drinks in the lobby of the Peabody Hotel in Memphis. I struck up a conversation with a lovely couple from Indianapolis who were visiting to celebrate their 5th anniversary. We had a drink to Senator Kennedy, and we found we were sympatico on health care (public option) and equality for all. A guy came up over my right shoulder and started inserting himself in the conersation and stated that we were talking socialism. I responded that I did not see the evil in socialism, but we did not need his input anyway. He and his ilk had had their say the last 8 years and they did nothing but screw things up. He had no place at my table, and I did not care to share a drink with him. I think he was taken aback that I really didn't care to hear his views. That's where I am now. I hope Obama gets on this bandwagon too. We elected him on his platform, not the republicans. It's time to ignore those that have nothing to add to the conversation and get on about the business of correcting the errors of the past.

[Yawper]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 5:13pm

While I agree there's potential for domestic terrorism (and don't let anyone kid you, there has ALWAYS been domestic terrorism, just not under that label), I think the most likely conflicts will mirror the economic, anti-establishment riots of the 1960s, not along political party or religious lines.

[madbrian]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 5:28pm

While I am concerned about domestic terrorism and the potential for violence at these town halls, I don't think there is anything 'organic' enough about the anger to rise to the level of civil war. While there is plenty of genuine disagreement on policy, much of the anger is driven by ignorance and/or misinformation. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't think that's enough to foment revolution.

[StockardFan]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 5:38pm

jg2, what are you going to be doing in Sweden? That's cool! (isn't it Switzerland that's famous for chocolate though?)

[JudasIscariot]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 7:08pm

Can anyone provide any evidence of all these Republican officials (elected) actually going forward in any way with trying to secede? I think that it's posts likes these that only serve to make things worse, because it creates fear and makes the rest of the party look like nut cases.

I actually thought you were making a joke at first, because the idea of there being a second Civil War is just so ridiculous right now, and you acting frightened by the fact that it could soon happen is equally as ridiculous, no offense intended to you.

[orangeskittles]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 7:13pm

If anything, we might see a shake-up in political parties, where the more moderate conservatives break it off from the crazies, and match up with the moderate liberals who aren't into health care reform or gay marriage.

I think western industrialized nations are beyond civil war in the literal sense. There's no place to have armed battles in the midst of suburbia.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 7:42pm

Bill Clinton had a republican Congress half his term and managed to work with them.

I think it was worse in the Clinton era. There was a concerted effort to exaggerate a series of made-up scandals to the point of impeachment over a silly blowjob, on the ridiculous pretext that he had "lied."

The efforts to attack Obama are nothing compared to the attacks on the Clintons.

And as for Reagan, between Iran-Contra and what we called his "murderous inaction over the AIDS crisis," I think we on the Left hated Reagan as much as or more than the current Right hates Obama.

And our hatred and disdain for Bush and Cheney was also as strong as or stronger than the Obama-phobia.

It has ever been thus in my lifetime, with the brief exception of Camelot...and since that ended in assassination, perhaps us Simple Folk were in a happy delusion.

[nygrl232]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 7:48pm

I think as long as people have reasonable access to the basics of life, war is avoidable. But if people aren't able to eat, then yeah, I can see people revolting against anything they deem to have any power whatsoever.

[Taryn]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 7:56pm

As far as a reason to secede, they already have one. Well, more than one. It's not as simple as a single issue of slavery.

Neither was the Civil War.

[madbrian]

Posted: 9/3/09 at 8:40pm

With respect to comparing this political environment to others, the current environment has the consistent, pervasive, but impossible to quantify element of racism. Sometimes it's near the surface, but it's always there, particularly with the fringe (Beck, Limbaugh, Palin, etc).

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 10:58am

"Can anyone provide any evidence of all these Republican officials (elected) actually going forward in any way with trying to secede? I think that it's posts likes these that only serve to make things worse, because it creates fear and makes the rest of the party look like nut cases."

Google is a wonderful thing. I'm not going to prove to you there's a war in Iraq or that Scarlett O'Hara was played by Vivien Leigh in Gone With the Wind. Or that the U.S. Congress is in Washington, DC. Or that the sky is blue. Search and look it up yourself. You'll find all sorts of links about secessionist movements currently in the U.S.


"I actually thought you were making a joke at first, because the idea of there being a second Civil War is just so ridiculous right now, and you acting frightened by the fact that it could soon happen is equally as ridiculous, no offense intended to you."

You haven't been watching the news lately. It's not all that ridiculous. And I never said that it's coming soon. But these angry and violent mobs are much less about healthcare reform issues and much more about US vs. THEM. "Stop THEM at all costs!" The divide between mentalities in the U.S. is growing like angry sports teams at a Super Bowl. To call the potential threat of a future a civil war "ridiculous" is to ignore our world history. I think that's ridiculous actually. And dangerous. If you ignore history, you are doomed to repeat it. I saw on the L.A. local news last night that a man's finger was bitten off by an angry Right-winger at a town hall meeting yesterday. The man was just passing through the crowd and wasn't even part of the protest. His finger was BITTEN OFF. If you don't think someone who bites a finger off would eagerly go to war over their beliefs, then what exactly does it take to convince you? And this isn't a one-time act of barbarism. Or an isolated incident. Things like this are happening now, all over the country. Every day.

And Taryn---the reason for SECESSION in the Civil War was slavery. There were other issues that played into their anger and other elements involved, I agree. But the South seceded because they were ordered to release their slaves.

They didn't want the government meddling in private business either. Sound familiar?

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 11:32am

I don't know if it's the vapors, or just low sugar, but I agree with every single word of PalJoey's post, in this thread.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 11:45am

Well, Reagan was able to address school children without parents pulling their kids out of school. While Bill & Hillary Clinton were accused of murder, it was confined to the fringe media, not spattered across the front page of the New York Times as the ridiculous accusations against Obama have been. And while I hated both Reagan and Bush intensely, I can't recall any mainstream media folks or elected officials saying that it was our patriotic duty to kill them.

[best12bars]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 12:01pm

I just want to clarify, too, that I'm not saying that if you don't think a civil war is in our future, you are "ridiculous." I actually agree with Roscoe and a few others here who have said that the lack of organization would be a key reason why a civil war wouldn't happen.

I just think it's "ridiculous" to think that a future U.S. civil war is "ridiculous" and "totally out of the question." That's a dangerous philosophy considering the events of the last few years. It also says to me that you know very little about world history and its patterns, let alone U.S. history.

Right now, today, the political climate isn't nearly hot enough to start a civil war. We would need to go far beyond the "angry mobs" to have a war. Next would come the terrorist attacks where criminals would end up as martyrs for the opposition. Then we would see people jailed "unjustly." Then riots. That's why I said I thought it was likely that if attitudes and feelings didn't change, we could potentially see a second civil war within our lifetimes. I don't know about you, but I'm planning on living longer than a couple of months or years.

On the other hand, I'm almost as old as PJ (gasp!), and I, too, have lived through several administrations. I have never seen barbaric behavior like this in congress or in public political forums. Kids in the streets? Yes. But not government officials.

I see a cancer in this country now. That's my nonprofessional diagnosis. The cancer isn't going to kill us anytime soon. But if it goes untreated, it will spread, as all cancers do. At some point, it will be inoperable. That's what worries me. We're not there yet at all. But we're not treating the problem either. We're encouraging it and feeding it. And many are in total denial that there is even a serious problem.

Updated On: 9/4/09 at 12:01 PM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 12:43pm

I am NOWHERE NEAR as old as PalJoey, but have been intensely involved in politics since the Nixon/McGovern race when I was in Elementary school. I can not ever remember a time like this.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 3:33pm

Joe--I thought you were old enough to be my Daddy.

[madbrian]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 3:40pm

To some extent, it's difficult to compare one era to another, even relatively recent ones, due to the advent of youtube and cellphones with cameras. All the crazies are getting much more exposure than ever before.

[javero]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 4:58pm

I don't believe there will be another U.S. civil war anytime soon where Americans take up arms against each other. However, I do foresee a massive tax revolt and mass exodus on the part of two of the larger ethnic groups from both border states and the old south due to illegal immigration and gay marriage/same-sex civil unions.

There have been massive migrations in the past for sundry reasons, e.g. dust bowl, industrialization, emancipation of slaves, etc. As an African American, I'm pleased by the visual of that first family in the White House but am saddened that the ascent of Obama has triggered a virulent strain of old-fashioned racism in parts of the old south. Let's not delude ourselves into thinking for once that his perceived race (and the bailouts) have no bearing on the mounting resistance from parts of the Right to single-payer health care with a public option.

Obama is now nearly as hated by many on the Right as either of the Clintons or the late Ted Kennedy for a different set of reasons. My more open-minded and better educated Republican friends are starting to admit that Obama's perceived race is an undercurrent to the current health care reform quagmire.

I'm close to pronouncing him a one-term President but will wait to see how a few things pan out. Not even he is the unifying force that I imagined he'd be. Sadly, Americans don't want a thinking POTUS who's a nice person, they want a war-mongering empire builder who will give them the impression that he alone can protect them from commies & socialists, maintain the unmentioned class-divide, keep terrorists offshore and protect their children from useless effete intellectuals & god-less sexual deviants who watch True Blood without fail.

Speaking of True Blood, I gotta find out who in my neighborhood will be hosting a season finale party.

[CSonBroadway]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 5:27pm

If this doesn't prove that America is crazy, I don't know what does.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvVAV09-dQ8&feature=video_response

[TheatreFan4]

Posted: 9/4/09 at 5:34pm

God she is such a dumb bitch.