Time to declare Islam has a right to exist. - Haaretz- Page 4

[DG]

Posted: 10/23/06 at 9:09pm

"papa was one of the most hated posters on BWW. Lately he's gotten in touch with his feminine side and has become a "kinder gentler a*****e" but anyone with a search button knows better."

Not that it really matters, and certainly not that he needs validation from anyone, but I disagree completely with this statement. If you want to comment on YOUR reaction to or relationship with papa, feel free - you will be neither the first nor last. But please don't presume to know what anyone else here thinks or feels regarding other posters.

[Elphaba]

Posted: 10/23/06 at 9:21pm

"I don't spread Jew-hatred and I'm sorry if someone isn't educated enough to understand my point of view."

Translation: Any one who doesn't agree with mejust is stupid.

Damn, mejust.....you don't have baggage honey, you've got steamer trunks!

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/23/06 at 10:08pm

honey? Eww I don’t think so.


“really.....hmm, while almost every Arab nation has a death-penalty for the crime of practicing homosexuality, I can think of not one Jewish, Hindu, or Buddhist nation has such a law on its books. And as there are no official Christian nations, I cannot respond to that. “

That was not part of the original argument. We were talking about Gay Muslims. It does not mean that Gay Muslims do not exist. LOL I’ve dated them. (Who do you think are being executed) You failed to mention the countries where being gay is Illegal like India which happens to have the world largest population and is made up of many faiths. Aren’t Israel and India “democracy?” why should faith have anything to do with their laws?


>>In Arab countries if you are caught having sex with the same sex as yourself, you are killed, period end.

You are right about this, but gay sex does happen. Gays happen and they have been all through history.


>>This does not happen in India, Taiwan, or Israel. This does not happen in Spain. The facts speak for themselves.

Well you act as though it has never happened there? All of those countries have persecuted homosexuals in their recent pasts. Fortunately they have progressive governments and people. Iran had a democracy until we invaded in 1953. There is no reason to believe gays would not have the same rights as other countries. We still do not have equal rights in the US. I did not bring this up, because we were talking about faith.

If you want to bring up Human Rights violations, I can single out recent incidents in India, Israel and Taiwan. I’m sure I can link Spain to some.


>>>I don't get the whole "gay Muslim" thing...I mean that would be like me being a Jewish Nazi.........makes no sense.

Why can’t someone be a Muslim and be gay? Do you know anything about the faith? Of course there is scriptures condemning it. Couldn’t I say the same thing about being a Gay Christian, Buddhist, Jew or Hindu? All of these faiths have openly condemned homosexuals and though there are no death sentences now, in our not-to-distant past there were plenty of executions. The books don’t lie – as they say. The times have changed and hopefully faith evolves with the times.

Most gays in history have been oppressed by religions. You have every reason to condemn these Islamic fascist governments. Denying gay existence or potential is not the way. There are Gay Muslims right here in New York.



Go meet some Gay Muslims in New York

[Elphaba]

Posted: 10/23/06 at 10:57pm

your post, as your rants are SO f-ing ridiculous I won't even respond to them. I replied point by point to your rant, YOU....on the other hand first send me an email accusing me of something I didn't do, and then take what I've said and twist it thinking it will make you look intelligent, when all it truly does is show how much of a mess you are.
I refuse to fuel your stupid rants, your absolutely barely intelligent attempts to rationalize your vomit....as it certainly isn't anything else.
And.......you're on the ignore list. Again, you have steamer trunks......and they need to be opened and dealt with.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/23/06 at 11:01pm

So I win?

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:04am

DG! Fess up. You sent me a PM last week telling me how much you hated papa and how you wished he'd leave this board. I didn't want to rat you out but... Updated On: 10/24/06 at 12:04 AM

[DG]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:11am

"DG! Fess up. You sent me a PM last week telling me how much you hated . . ."

Considering what I've recently been willing to say on the public board, it's pretty obvious that's a load of crap - even though I assume you're making a joke.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:18am

DG I'm sorry I dropped a dime on you.

threadjack: "drop a dime"

-It's from the US and a couple decades back. A payphone cost 10¢ per call. To narc' on someone would involve dropping a dime into the phone. Though, the association of the price to the call had been broadened beyond the payphone to residential lines. This shows up in other phrases, too. For example, to treat someone is to do it "on your dime" or in response to, for example, "do you have time for me to tell you something," a common, slang response would be "hey, it's you dime." The popularity of "drop a dime" partly involves the parallel between the description of coin-insertion as "dropping" and the visceral sense of betrayal involved, and partly from the phonotactic rhyming of "dime" to "crime" ("drop a dime on crime").

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:44am

FYI: for those who wish to put ALL the sock puppets of the Disgraced Former Moderator on their official or unofficial IGNORE lists, dame&sir = Jose.

Updated On: 10/24/06 at 12:44 AM

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:56am

I'm the true Jose!

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 12:59am

Nah.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 3:43am

NO SM2. Pal has made his tiny little mind up. And don't we all wish we had his resolve when it comes to ignoring me!

[DG]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 3:59am

For what it's worth, since Dame&Sir made the comment he/she did about papa, I don't think he's Jose', as they are friends.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/24/06 at 7:53am

But DG--that's such a Jose thing to do!

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/25/06 at 4:44pm

Immigrant youths march through Paris
By ELAINE GANLEY, Associated Press Writer


Wed Oct 25, 12:43 PM ET



Mixing rap music with memories of France's revolutionary past, youths from poor neighborhoods of largely Muslim and African descent marched through Paris on Wednesday to present a collection of 20,000 complaints to lawmakers.

The march by several hundred people came ahead of Friday's first anniversary of the riots involving disaffected youths from immigrant Parisian suburbs. Many in France fear new violence, with tensions rising in recent weeks.

"The context is still the same, nothing has changed. So the situation is propitious for other events like last year," said Samir Mihi, co-founder of the AC-Le Feu group that collected the grievances from minorities all over France.

The demonstrators held ragged-looking notebooks filled with complaints while crossing southern Paris toward the Assembly, the lower house of parliament, after a stop at the Senate.

"Immigrants scare the French" read one unsigned entry. Another entry, by a 17-year-old boy from Besancon in eastern France, urged companies to use their profits to create more jobs.

Police blocked the marchers as they neared the National Assembly, allowing only a small group to reach the parliament. Security forces have been girding for renewed violence around Friday's anniversary, and many streets throughout southern Paris were blocked by vans of riot police.

The crowd sang "La Marseillaise," France's national anthem, and broke into chants of "Vive la France," proclaiming their allegiance to a country where they often feel unwelcome. Last year's riots sprang in part from anger over high unemployment and discrimination against immigrants and their French-born children, many of them Muslims from former French colonies in Africa.

Police said the violence, however, was not driven by Islamic groups.

France's inability to integrate minorities from poor housing projects and recent violence against police are becoming major political issues as the campaign heats up for next year's presidential and parliamentary elections.

While politicians on the left have called for more government programs to integrate poor youths since the riots, the leading presidential contender on the right, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy, has sought to crack down on crime and immigration and echoed slogans of the extreme right.

"The young are starting to wake up. That bothers politicians," said 26-year old educator Audrey Pronesti, who lives in Epinay-Sur-Seine north of Paris, the site of a recent ambush of police officers by local youths. "This is a movement of young people who respect the law, believe in the law, don't steal and aren't violent."

AC-Le Feu was created shortly after the three weeks of unrest sparked by the deaths on Oct. 27, 2005, of two young boys of African descent who were electrocuted in a power substation in Clichy-sous-Bois, northeast of Paris, while hiding from police.

The group, whose name is a play on words for "enough fire," crisscrossed France in two painted minibuses in a monthslong tour of 120 suburbs and towns to meet with young and old and document their worries in their "Book of Grievances."

Hoping to evoke images of the 1789 French Revolution, their plan was to bring the people's voices to Paris and hand over the notebooks to lawmakers. However, the head of the National Assembly refused to meet with the group.

Mihi and another AC-Le Feu founder, Mohamed Mechmache, work with youths in Clichy-sous-Bois and served as mediators during the riots. However, the fact that new laws, an influx of funds and a glut of promises have had no immediate impact on the problems in immigrant neighborhoods only underscores the precarious nature of the truce.

"In 12 months, it's obvious that you can't change everything," said Claude Dilain, mayor of Clichy-sous-Bois.

"I'm worried because not only has the French society's attitude not changed but I think it has even worsened," he said in an interview with AP Television News. "A large part of French society disdains the suburbs."

Dilain noted that not a single government minister attended the opening this month of a high-profile photo exhibit of life in Clichy-sous-Bois. "No one. No one. No one came," he said.

Azouz Begag, the government minister for equal opportunities, warned against saying nothing has changed since the riots.

"Then the message will be that you can break France," he told reporters. "If you want fire, there will be fire."

___

Associated Press Writer Jean-Marie Godard in Paris contributed to this report.


Updated On: 10/25/06 at 04:44 PM

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 10:53pm

According to Rabbi Joel Beasley, you can't be a Gay Jew either. He miss quoted Jessica Rabbit though, so maybe he can't be trusted. She actually said "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way." (I have always said that to my boyfriend). It's a nice read. He makes some good points, human sexuality is not black and white.


-------------

Why Neither Homosexuality nor Heterosexuality Exist in Judaism
Written by Joel Beasley
Jewish Spectator, Winter 1998, pg 27 (Posted January 2002)

Rabbi Joel Beasley teaches Bible, Talmud, and Philosophy, and develops creative learning programs in a variety of educational institutions near his home in Alon Shvut, Israel. This article first appeared in the Jewish Spectator, Winter 1998.

"God does not play tricks on His creations". - Talmud, Avoda Zara 3a
"I'm not a bad girl; I'm just drawn that way." - Jessica Rabbit, Who Shot Roger Rabbit? (198.

Canadian columnist Barbara Amiel recently identified a product of Western culture she called the "azza," a person who prefaces comments with the words, "as a." "Azza left-handed pro-life Scottish-nationalist Elvis-imitator," for example, "I might find your remarks offensive." The azza preface grants critical immunity. Honest intellectual discussion is hard to come by with this ultra-sensitive, utilitarian character.

Amiel's words resonate in an era in which Jewish tradition is derided as bigoted and homophobic. Is there any relevance in this environment for the Torah view that the homosexual act is an "abomination" (Leviticus 18:22)? How can Judaism with its unambiguous position speak to this generation? As far as the Jewish religion goes, there are no homosexuals in the world, nor have there ever been. There are no heterosexuals either. Both terms are pejorative. They imply that the essence of existence lies somehow within the crass and the carnal. Human beings are reduced to their most primal function, as if the point of life was to contemplate the smorgasbord of sexual possibilities in the world.

From the Jewish perspective, identifying existentially as a homosexual or a heterosexual is as irrelevant as identifying as a ptyalizer (a person whose saliva flows excessively).The words may describe predilections or behavior, but they hardly capture the essence of the person. The Torah labels people not by their primal urges, but by their obligations to God. The Cohen, Levi, and Yisrael each play a different role within the apparatus of Divine worship. The adult keeps mitzvot, while the youth is exempt. The indentured servant, the non-Jewish citizen, and the free person all enjoy different monetary obligations. In dividing these responsibilities, God apparently did not care about human preferences, sexual or otherwise. He did not ask the Jewish people whether or not they would like to follow His Torah. According to the Midrash, He held the mountain over the entire nation and said, "take it." No azza interest group declined because of special needs. It was an offer no one could refuse.

In the pre-azza world, Jews tended to appreciate their Creator more, not only for bringing them out of bondage, but for enabling them to breathe. The Torah gave them the opportunity to express their gratitude. Before JFK, God told His people not to ask what He can do for them, but what they can do for Him. If any one label applies accurately to the Jew, it is Eved Hashem, servant of God. This may represent the main point of conflict between the ideology of the azza world and the Torah. The azza is concerned with rights. The Torah rarely discusses rights. It is more focused on responsibilities. Within its structured framework, people can maximize their own distinct talents and interests. Their ultimate task is to become partners with God in the world's creation -- literally by creating their unique selves in His image.

As part of this act of self-creation, people must see their personal qualities as constantly evolving. Branding themselves with labels stymies their potential for growth and destroys their partnership with God. Labels rarely describe people as they are. They more frequently become self-fulfilling prophecies. A child who is labeled "slow" from an early age feels defeated. Trying to rise above the low expectations seems futile.

Teshuvah, the assumption that any human quality can be changed if necessary to serve the Creator, allows individuals to maximize their potential beyond their wildest expectations. A child once assumed to have been slow can develop into a top scholar with the appropriate determination. Every destructive impulse can be directed towards appropriate holy activity.

The current consensus amongst Behavioral Psychologists supports the Torah's optimism with regards to change. With the right positive and negative reinforcement, people can adjust to any number of previously unimaginable realities. Behavioral conditioning usually works more efficiently at earlier ages, but all people can adjust to new situations if they are motivated.

According to sexual behaviorists like Masters and Johnson, babies are born neither heterosexual nor homosexual in any categorical sense (Human Sexuality, 1995, fifth edition). They are sexually malleable, and can remain in flux throughout their lifetimes. Whether sexuality is determined by biology or by the environment -- or both -- is a question that defies clear empirical proof. Regardless of the nature-nurture conundrum, sexual attraction is almost always influenced to some degree by external stimuli. Human preferences are complex and quirky. If chocolate ice cream tastes sensational today, it may taste less so tomorrow. People are inclined naturally towards aesthetic variation. That does not mean they should be free to act on their impulses. The Torah understands that unrestrained pursuit of personal pleasure takes a terrible toll on society, and creates havoc for the stability of the family.

What if people feel genuinely attracted to their own gender? This does not make them homosexual, even if they experience homosexual feelings. These feelings may or may not go away in time, but the Torah still expects that people adapt themselves as best they can to male-female marriage. There have always been people in the world who at least at one point in their lives are attracted to their own gender, to little children, to family members, to ever-changing sexual whims. God does not permit people to act out their fantasy lives if these conflict with His vision of holiness.

The Torah does not accept the concept of monogamous homosexual relationships because self-fulfillment is not part of its agenda. If human sexuality is influenced by environment, someone with homosexual ideation can potentially lead a fulfilled marital life. But even if their innermost desires remained unfulfilled, it does not matter. It may never become clear why some people do not feel predisposed to marrying someone of the opposite sex. The obligation remains.

Marriage is meant to teach people how to rise above their own selfish needs in order to give to a partner who is both psychologically and physiologically different. Same-gender marriages might have been too easy. As one essayist put it, male couples would have been able to sit around and watch ballgames all day; female couples would have been able to sit down and really talk about one another's feelings. But marriage is meant to challenge each of the partners. John Grey's bestsellers on the subject (Menare from Mars, Women are from Venus, et al.) have touched a raw nerve precisely because members of both sexes are aware of the difficulty in bridging the chasm between them.

Jews have always appreciated the gap between the sexes. The Torah sanctified it. The Jews were the first people in world history to make divorce difficult by forcing the man to pay a hefty sum before separating permanently from his wife. When the inevitable conflicts arose, neither spouse could run away so quickly. They had to stay together and work things out the hard way, often becoming finer individuals in the process. Divorce was a possibility, but only as a last resort after all other options had been explored. The constructive tension in marriage helped them grow.

Male-female marriage is a much more stable societal norm than monogamous same-sex relationships. Dennis Prager argues that men in particular need women as a civilizing force in order to tame their potentially unruly libidos ("Judaism, Homosexuality, and Civilization," Ultimate Issues ,April-June 1990). Societies that tolerated homosexual behavior in history were characterized almost without exception by the oppression and subjugation of women, by the elevation of male sexual gratification as a mainstream pastime, and by a lack of any persevering family life. Men by their nature are not as willing to commit to long-term relationships. Prager argues that "while it is possible for male homosexuals to live lives of fidelity comparable to those of heterosexual males, it is usually not the case." According to one study, the typical lesbian has fewer than ten lovers in the course of her active sexual life, the typical male homosexual has over five hundred (Bell and Weinberg, Homosexualities, Alfred Kinsey Institute for Sex Research, 197.

God's idea of holiness is not always discernible to the human mind. These explanations may not fully account for the Torah's overall prohibition. They do refute the popular claim that the Torah would have sanctioned monogamous homosexual relationships if it had known about them. The prohibition was meant to be unambiguous and eternal. This is one reason the Torah is so spare with its words, "And do not lie with the male in the way you lie with a woman -- it is an abomination" (Leviticus 18:22). Try as they may, modern voices fail to twist these words beyond their unavoidably clear meaning.

God is not cruel. He does not ask people to do anything beyond their capacity. He does at times ask them to harness their desires. To some degree, all mitzvot go against the natural human grain. Without the social or ethical restraints that usually bind them, most people would steal, live promiscuously, lie, cheat, and occasionally murder, sometimes out of sheer convenience. The greatest struggle in life, according to the Torah, is to discipline base instincts in pursuit of moral excellence. People are bursting with inchoate spirituality. The truly righteous learn how to control their physical drives while striving to realize their loftiest convictions.

Many people diminish their potential by embracing labels. The self-proclaimed homosexual who engages in homosexual acts is not necessarily considered evil from a Torah perspective. The act is evil. The prohibition may be absolute, but Jews still have a priority of showing one another compassion, especially when doing the right thing becomes a struggle. There is no contradiction when those who condemn homosexual behavior reach out lovingly to self-identified "homosexuals." It means that they are able to see the Divine image in all people.

In a world that hypocritically accepts homosexuality in public and abhors it in private, the compassionate Jewish approach is unique. But for Judaism to be on the cutting edge is nothing new. The Midrash explains why our founder was called Avraham ha'ivri. While the rest of the world stood on one side(iver) of the river, Avraham bravely stood on the other. Jews are defined from the beginning of their history by their ability to stand firm in their beliefs despite the prevailing trends in the world. The Jewish views of monotheism, a limited monarchy, and freedom have rarely been endorsed by the historical powers of the world. Most of these powers themselves have died out, while the Jews and their Torah are as vibrant as ever. When homosexuality was exalted in Greek, Mayan, Chinese, Scandinavian cultures -- in fact almost every society in world history (see David E. Greenberg, The Construction of Homosexuality, 198 -- the Jews stood resolutely by their ideal of male-female marriage.

People diminish themselves by insisting on azza-like labels. Strangely enough, in the modern world, identity often becomes enmeshed with career: "I am a secretary," "a lawyer," "a clerk," "an artist." These self-definitions are sadly accurate for those who accomplish little beyond their all-consuming careers. Others identify with their astrological signs, their lives assuming a kooky arbitrary dimension that seems beyond the individual's control. And some identify with their carnal preferences, as homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, or otherwise sexually challenged. Sex indeed often dominates their lives. If their days and nights are not filled with pursuits of physical pleasure, their minute-to-minute fantasy life tends to be all-engrossing.

The Torah offers a finer alternative. Within God's scheme, career, cosmos, and sexuality are all part of life's intricate fabric. Judaism is not ascetic. The individual is supposed to appreciate the richness of God's physical creation. The key is to accept the Torah's parameters. Through discipline and a pursuit of holiness, the Torah teaches how to appreciate the spiritual gifts in the universe and thereby live the fullest kind of existence.
http://www.jonahweb.org/cms/e/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=33

[PalJoey]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:09pm

Here is a message from Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum, the lesbian rabbi of our wonderful Congregation Beth Simchat Torah, here in New York.

Maybe you'd like to come with me to a Friday night service sometime, mejusthavingfun.

===

Congregation Beth Simchat Torah is New York’s gay synagogue, dedicated to the proposition that gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender Jews are wholly legitimate members of the Jewish People, are equally legitimate members of civil society and have a unique and essential contribution to make the life of Judaism and to the larger society in which we live.

We are a diverse and inclusive congregation-–whatever your sexual orientation and whatever your relationship to Judaism, you, your, family, and your friends are welcome to join us at CBST.

We are active in many dimensions through which we continually seek to transform ourselves from a collection of individuals into a spiritual community in which we can create a profound sense of purpose and meaning in our lives and in which we can experience the presence of God.

~ We are a house of prayer, offering both traditional and liberal services within an egalitarian framework. We are seeking to develop the ritual, liturgical and theological heritage of Judaism to meet our widely ranging needs as a congregation.

~ We are a house of refuge and healing, offering community support as well as pastoral care for life passages and traumas experienced by gay Jews in a homophobic society. We are seeking to expand the range of services we can provide to all in our community who are in need.

~ We are a house of celebration, rejoicing in our joint identities as lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Jews. We are seeking to share our delight with everyone-–Jewish or not, gay or not-–everywhere and in every season.

~ We are a house of assembly, active in the pursuit of social justice. We a seeking to expand our commitment and scope as a center for advancing human rights, locally, nationally and throughout the world. We are committed to the people and the State of Israel, and we pray for peace and justice for all its people.

~ We are a house of learning, continually expanding our knowledge and deepening our understanding of our religious and cultural heritage, both Jewish and gay. We are seeking to open this heritage to our congregation, to the gay and Jewish communities at large, and to the world.

~ We are a house of culture, celebrating our creativity. We are seeking to embrace and contribute to the whole range of our gay and Jewish musical, literary, and artistic traditions.

We are a spiritual community, warm and nurturing, intense challenging. We are seeking to deepen our commitments to one another and to our sense of purpose as a significant voice in the gay community, in Judaism, and in the dialogue of religion and society.

Even ma’asu habomim haitah l’rosh pinah-—the stone that the builders rejected--has indeed become our cornerstone. May God grant us the vision and the strength to continue with the building.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:21pm

Has anyone seen this documentary?



IMDb summary:
"Built around intimately-told personal stories of Hasidic and Orthodox Jews who are gay or lesbian, the film portrays a group of people who face a profound dilemma - how to reconcile their passionate love of Judaism and the Divine with the drastic Biblical prohibitions that forbids homosexuality."

[DG]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:22pm

Yes, SM2 - and if you haven't, please do.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:27pm

Paljoey - Thanks...sounds like a blast! My point is that the people on here so quick to dismiss Islam as this fascist oppressive cult, need to understand that there is a lot of room for interpretation of scripture. It's not always good, in fact religion has been used for thousands of years to separate and divide people. Most religions have been used a great deal to oppress homosexuality. (Notably, Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, Christianity and Buddhism). Also, it’s extremely ethnocentric to apply simplistic George Bush reasoning to human sexuality.

[DG]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:35pm

"people on here so quick to dismiss Islam"

mejust - I've been watching your posts for some time, and I'm having a hard time avoiding the 'angry gay Black man' cliche'. And the Islamic angle is thrown in almost for kicks.

I have as yet to see anything remotely akin to a general dismissal of Islam on this site - if anything, it doesn't register on most poster's radar.

Which leads me to, what is your angle or goal here? I get all the specific parameters that inform your perspective - but you AREN'T alone in some of those parameters, so you needn't feel the need to crusade so much. Especially not at the expense of reality (Islam dismissers - here?)

Your allies might not be as far away as you imagine, but your enemies will increase exponentially along with the number of accusatory diatribes you post.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:47pm

DG-

Are you blind? Maybe their threads got deleted. Papa and CM tore up this thread. Several posters have been pretty rude on here and just plain ignorant. And yes they bash Islam, and they call me an anti-Semite. So I'm black now?

I come off as angry? Have you seen how explosive people are on here if I suggest any criticism of US supported Israeli policy? I'm immediately an anti-Semite and bashed. Touchy much? Over-reactive Jew cliché?

[DG]

Posted: 10/26/06 at 11:55pm

mejust - I'm not a Jew, so I couldn't be an over-reactive one, even if I tried.

And the bashing that I've read (and mind you, I certainly don't claim to read everything - just most things, especially if it seems to have substance) is toward RADICAL Islam - which most accord some distinction.

And just as an aside, certain posters that you're referencing have a long history here - with an established style that could be falsely interpreted by someone who didn't have everything in perspective. I'm just sayin' . . .

(Dear God, I CAN'T believe I just typed that phrase!)

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 12:03am

DG - Thank you for that. I see your point. It's nice that you put RADICAL in caps. I certainly haven't seen that on this board before. And that over-reactive Jew thing wasn’t necessarily directed at you. *Oh and the perspective thing, I’m not stupid, I’m just not clairvoyant. Updated On: 10/27/06 at 12:03 AM

[DG]

Posted: 10/27/06 at 12:16am

mejust - trust me, if I didn't at least have a sense that you were trying to be heard, you wouldn't have heard a word out of me.

I know that swimming upstream here can be . . . shall we say 'trying', so your continued attempts to come to some awareness are duly noted.

Seriously, I would pay attention to the demarcation that almost everyone makes between the radicals and the 'normal' adherents - even Catholics.

I'm SO going to pay for that last remark . . .