'Tis the season... for another senseless MALL SHOOTING SPREE- Page 3

[mominator]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 8:34pm

"Top story on CNN.com reads "Mall shooter's suicide note: Now I'll be famous" with a huge photo of the shooter.

Looks like they were more than happy to grant his wish."

"I say report about the crime, but stop turning the murderer into the "star of the show."

Very well stated B12B and MM
By plastering his name and image the media has fulfilled his wish.

[DG]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 8:42pm

Slight side-note here: Am I really the only person that doesn't resonate with the idea that we are all drawn to gore? Two people have posted this thought now, and my reaction is, "This must be the ultimate sign that I'm not human."

I honestly have no interest in that type of thing - at all. I'm one of those who get upset at people who slow down to rubberneck at an accident site. If it doesn't concern you, MOVE ON, and stop creating more of a problem.

This also extends to the preoccupation that many seem to have with cop/medical dramas. I just don't identify with that AT ALL.

And I take a little offense to it being characterized as 'human nature'. Where does that leave me?

[Yawper]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 8:57pm

Take no offense - human nature is generally not a pretty thing

[DG]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 9:01pm

That might be Yawper (and I do tend to agree) - but I still don't understand the acceptance of 'gore fixation' as an attribute that we all share.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 9:40pm

DG it is exactly that reaction is why I suggested that the results be shown and not the smiling picture of a young boy with the "I want to be famous" tag. There is nothing glamorous about shootings like these. The "FAME" also lasts only as long enough as the talking heads can garner ratings, then it is on to the next Britney outrage!

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 9:45pm

Do humans have an instinctive interest in violent acts?
Just look at history:

Gladiators: Slave v. Slave, Christians v. Lions. Why do you think these events were so popular?

Public executions: Do you think people crammed into the public square just to see justice carried out? No, they wanted to see heads roll… literally.

Boxing: Goes back to the Greeks, at least. This “sport” has NEVER gone out of fashion. People want to see their guy (or slave) beat the crap out of the other guy.

Nascar: Don’t tell me people really like watching cars go round and round. No, they are waiting for a crash.

Dare Devils/The Circus: Houdini, Evel Knievel? The excitement of a trapeze act or a lion tamer comes from the chance that the person swinging 100 feet over head might fall, or the person swinging the whip might be eaten by the lion.

Literature: Edgar Allan Poe, Agatha Christie, Stephen King, True Crime Books… BIILLIONS of dollars spent to get the gory details.

Slasher flix: Halloween, 1-10, Saw 1-IV and more to come, Nightmare on Elm Street…

the list is ENDLESS.

I would not say you are not HUMAN if you don’t have some kind of curiosity of the morbid, but history shows that it is not something to be ashamed of. And if you think you are special because you DON’T, well, that is so nice.

[DG]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:04pm

"And if you think you are special because you DON’T, well, that is so nice."

I didn't infer that at all. I asked a question.

Why do you insist on casting my viewpoint as something I view as 'above' any others? I don't imply it, but you always characterize it that way. Why?

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:12pm

Am I really the only person that doesn't resonate with the idea that we are all drawn to gore? Two people have posted this thought now, and my reaction is, "This must be the ultimate sign that I'm not human."

I honestly have no interest in that type of thing - at all. I'm one of those who get upset at people who slow down to rubberneck at an accident site. If it doesn't concern you, MOVE ON, and stop creating more of a problem.

This also extends to the preoccupation that many seem to have with cop/medical dramas. I just don't identify with that AT ALL.

And I take a little offense to it being characterized as 'human nature'. Where does that leave me?

Sorry if you didn't intend the above post to come off to sound as if that you were better than people who do like cop/medical dramas, or who will slow down at the scene of an accident, but that is how it reads.
By the way, what about Sweeney Todd? Like it?

[DG]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:18pm

No, I didn't intend for it to come off as if I were better, just different. If that's the way it reads, my apologies.

And as for SWEENEY, I'm not a fan of the piece in general. The subject matter has always been off-putting, and I'm not a Sondheim officianado in general. The TinMan is a fan, and I've agreed to see it with him in the theatre (which is a rarity for us.) But I'll probably watch some of it through my hands over my eyes, like I did in the theatre.

[GlindatheGood22]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:23pm

That mall shooting was an awful tradgedy and far be it from me to say it wasn't. But an equal tradgedy was the life of the shooter. Don't get me wrong. He deserves to fall to the bottom of hell if you ask me. But just think about how cracked in the head you would have to be to do something like that, and how many horrible things that have to happen to drive you to that point. It makes you sick to even think about it. So my heart goes out to his family as well as the families of the victims.

[DG]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:48pm

"But just think about how cracked in the head you would have to be to do something like that, and how many horrible things that have to happen to drive you to that point."

This is the thing for me - I don't believe those conditions really existed. I think it's become a common trait in our society not to honor life - other's, or your own. I find nothing whatsovever in the information given that he was 'out of the norm'. We have just bred a group of people that have no sense of the value of human life - or life in general, for that matter.

His declarations make it apparent that he was consciously making a choice, and knew what the ramifications would be. That's not mental illness, in my world. That's narcissism at its finist.

And I just won't get into the concept of 'horrible things' - not in light of his place within our pampered society.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:50pm

Yes Glinda, We should find out what happened to him to discover the mechanism that causes someone to feel the need to commit such a horrible act! Perhaps it is early detection, counseling, meds and hospitalization if necessary would have helped. If not him but a future mall shooter. I am sure that 19 year old kid was living in the bottom of Hell before he went on his spree. Even if it were only in his own mind.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 12/6/07 at 11:52pm

DG, can I interrupt to say that I parked at the mall before T-Day and my spot was on Nightline tonight.

I have had many conversations with friends and family in Omaha. It is horrible for such a fine city. Get rid of those guns.

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 12:12am

"Get rid of those guns."

I was actually going to ask how long it would be before we had security checkpoints entering into public spaces. Then I remembered that I had to pass through one to enter the 'mall' that was created out of the old Post Office in DC.

It shouldn't be long til it reaches everywhere.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 12:22am

DG - this kid had access to a rapid fire weapon. Ban these weapons! There is no legitimate purpose for these guns.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 1:09am

"This is the thing for me - I don't believe those conditions really existed."

DG in cases of mental illness (and I believe we can classify deciding to go into a mall and kill strangers and then yourself a product of a mental illness) the conditions usually exist in the person's mind! Whether they do in the real world or not.
A person suffering from paranoia, for example, believes for a fact that people are out to get them. They perceive (what they believe to be) hard evidence in their lives even when it doesn't exist but is a construct of their illness. They make conscious decisions based on this evidence.
To say that we have bred a group of people with no regard for human life is a very pessimistic viewpoint in my opinion. If this were true, I think there would be a lot more of this type of thing then there is.
I am sure that the depression, aloofness and general anti social behaviors which have been being described by people in this boy's life contributed to his spree. It is also being reported that he had spent time in institutions for making threats against his step mom. There is a history there.

[DG]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 2:13am

"I believe we can classify deciding to go into a mall and kill strangers and then yourself a product of a mental illness"

It seems there are extenuating circumstances around this particular case - but in general, I'm not sure your statement is actually true in today's world (although, I certainly would agree with it!)

I perceive a real break in connection for much of today's youth. They don't seem to exhibit the same kinds of boundaries that I find inherrent to life. Specifically, the afformentioned respect for other's life, and their own. Your statement takes for granted a certain respect and understanding that I'm not sure exists in today's world - at least not in totality.

Was this particular individual mentally ill? Perhaps - as are others who have perpetuated these same types of crimes. But is it a GIVEN that we're just dealing with mental illness in cases such as this? I'm not convinced. I think there's a growing portion of the populace that simply doesn't have these inherrent boundaries. And the causes are the source of much debate - things like the media and mass 'entertainment' which has dulled the senses to the miracle of life.

I just know that I personally don't employ a knee-jerk reaction of 'they were sick, and out of the norm'. I truly wonder if they are that far removed from what we are creating in ourselves.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 12:17pm

Slight side-note here: Am I really the only person that doesn't resonate with the idea that we are all drawn to gore?

While I think stating it as an absolute is incorrect, generally speaking I would say that most people do exhibit morbid curiosity and I believe history has shown that it has been a shared human characteristic globally through the ages. More people rubberneck than don't. I mean, just look at the Two Girls One Cup thread to see how many people were so thoroughly disgusted by a hideous video, yet admitted to watching the entire thing. Now, I'm not saying morbid curiosity is neither good nor bad. It just exists and I think to not have it puts you in the minority. There have been times I certainly wish I didn't have it.

[SNAFU]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 12:31pm

I do believe that for any number of a population a certain percentage may be wired this way. There may be many who live in the pressure cooker and never act out, Then there are ones like this case that do. As the population increases so do the number of incidents. I quess then it could be considered a part of the norm. I don't think this is a new phenominon. I also believe that there are outward symptoms that they exhibit.
In oither places it is kids like these that are recruited to be suicide bomers or to drive planes into buildings.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/7/07 at 12:41pm

A very interesting discussion here!

"I'm one of those who get upset at people who slow down to rubberneck at an accident site. If it doesn't concern you, MOVE ON, and stop creating more of a problem."

DG--For what it's worth, I'm one of those too.

I must say, though, that I don't worry too much about the generalities. I do agree with those who say it's "human nature" to have a morbid curiosity. You could also call it an "animal instinct" which is really what "human nature" is.

Whether or not you decide to pursue or embrace your animal instincts is another thing. We shouldn't necessarily write that off as an acceptable excuse, in other words. There are plenty of "animal instincts" that, if acted upon, would land us squarely in jail (or in "Hell," if you're so inclined).

We have a choice to go with these instincts or make conscious decisions to go against them, for whatever our reasons: It's morally wrong, legally wrong, politically wrong, ethically wrong, etc.

That is (in theory) what makes us "civilized," and not just a living, breathing "human animal."

...Our ability to distinguish right from wrong. Good from bad. Acceptable from unacceptable... Our conscience.

Updated On: 12/7/07 at 12:41 PM

[DG]

Posted: 12/8/07 at 1:13am

"Our ability to distinguish right from wrong. Good from bad. Acceptable from unacceptable... Our conscience."

This is what I wonder about having shifted. There are things I take for granted, that don't seem to be a part of the accepted 'norm' these days.

I guess I'm just an 'old geezer' before my time. But I truly have to wonder, if everything has accelerated beyond our ability to assimilate, does that include our 'moral' base?

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 12/8/07 at 2:10am

I've been staying away from this story, mostly out of self-preservation, but it's so sad. I don't really understand the point at which "I don't want to go on living" suicides became, "I'm going to take as many people down with me as I can" shooting sprees. To read the excerpts of the shooter's suicide note, it sounds like what he'd say if he merely intended to take his own life. I can't recall nearly as many incidents like this before the shootings at Columbine. I think it's true that the media's sensationalism has a lot to do with it. These are people who seem to be so angry at the world for ignoring or overlooking them that they'll do anything to finally get the attention they feel they're owed. Maybe that's the shift that's taken place.

Leave it to SweetQintheLights to make an ignorant, pointless comment on a sensitive subject.

[best12bars]

Posted: 12/8/07 at 9:07am

sweetestsiren--I completely agree with you on everything you said.

I don't really understand the point at which "I don't want to go on living" suicides became, "I'm going to take as many people down with me as I can" shooting sprees.

It's their last (and often first), big "joyful noise" before they go. Our media has taught us that we're nothing unless we're famous. Unless we have our 15 minutes of fame, we don't really count. These sad, warped souls want to be noticed big-time on the way out. And thanks to the media, they are assured that this action will result in their achieving this goal.

These are people who seem to be so angry at the world for ignoring or overlooking them that they'll do anything to finally get the attention they feel they're owed. Maybe that's the shift that's taken place.

Exactly.

And DG, I don't think "the entire world" has shifted. Popular opinions and "social norms" may have changed in our current society, but I wouldn't ever be concerned with that, if I were you. Seek out and surround yourself with the people who share your beliefs and perspectives. There are plenty of them as well. Your "struggle" seems to be in wanting the world at large (or our society at large) to think a certain way, your way... even if it truly is a "better" way. That's a struggle you'll never win.

I would focus your energy and efforts on "digging through the mud to find the flowers." They're there all around you. And live by example, not by pining over those who don't share your point of view.

Updated On: 12/8/07 at 09:07 AM

[DG]

Posted: 12/8/07 at 9:15am

Besty - they say it takes a pig to find the truffles, so I'm up for the job

And that IS what I do - truly. But it's still a little depressing sometimes just to look around.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 12/8/07 at 10:01am

It's interesting from a psychological standpoint -- I'm not an expert by any means, but my perception is that many people who commit suicide feel that they're the problem and the reason their lives are that bad, and historically I think that holds up. This new breed seems to project that outward and onto the world at large for being unfair to them and unleash their anger on others. It's not that they were worthless or helpless, it's that the world is unfair and never gave them a chance, and now they've seen that they can (in that warped state of mind) do something about it. Whatever the reasoning behind it, it's such a disturbing trend.