Trumpcare 2.1 — Page 2

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#26

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/26/17 at 11:31pm

But... I don't think healthcare is a human right. Here are two reasons:

(1) Healthcare involves human labor. No one is born with the right to claim the fruits of other people's labor.

HOW AYN RAND OF YOU! SPOKEN LIKE A SELFISH LIBERTARIAN!

(2) Modern healthcare is a bunch of technologies that didn't exist until fairly recently. How can something be a human right if it didn't even exist for most of human history?

GOING BY YOUR WAY OF THINKING, LBGTQ PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE RIGHT FOR MOST OF HUMAN HISTORY! OR WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE OR OWN PROPERTY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THESE RIGHTS FOR MOST OF HUMAN HISTORY!

"

#27

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 6:54am

I generally agree with you on a lot of valid points kdogg, but I have to disagree with you on this one. I'm not interested in fighting either but...

In our more modern and evolved world, healthcare is an important part of a compassionate and caring world. History books are filled with plagues and diseases that targeted certain segments of society and decimated the entire world. Today, measles, rubella or polio are contained through vaccines and certain government interventions. Not all "plagues" os sickness is contained or totally researched, such as breast or cervical cancer or HIV/AIDS, to a successful outcome, yet, we as an advanced society...we understand and explore treatment. These kind of results are "the fruits" or the result of someone else's labor.

Example: Hospitals like St. Jude or Shriner's accept children/patients from all over the world, with or without their ability to pay. Even supporting extended benefits like parental expenses, again, without their ability to pay.

The wealthiest segment of the population are being set up, again, to benefit from the cuts this time around. Repeatedly, I understand you can not enforce everyday morality, but fair is fair, and this is fair and understanding in today's world.

Just as an example again, how many rich and well to do seniors still accept Social Security and Medicare when they can easily afford not to need or claim it? It's because it's a social "safety net" for "Everyone" not just poor people. That's one reason I believe it's fair that they pay a little more, not get tremendous tax cuts on their bank accounts, on amounts they will never need. In reality, the Senate and Congress know this, but some of them, amid their wealthiest supporters, just don't care.

I Can Has Cheezburger With This?

Updated On: 6/27/17 at 06:54 AM

#28

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 8:18am

Ooops, I forgot...

Please call your Senators TODAY!!!

https://www.senate.gov/senators/contact/

This is an unprecedented, immoral bill that grabs and eliminates, in some cases, the ONLY access to any type of significant coverage, whether you are 25 or 75...this cannot pass...PLEASE CALL!

I Can Has Cheezburger With This?

#29

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 8:56am

A Director said: "HOW AYN RAND OF YOU! SPOKEN LIKE A SELFISH LIBERTARIAN!

GOING BY YOUR WAY OF THINKING, LBGTQ PEOPLE SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY RIGHTS BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE RIGHT FOR MOST OF HUMAN HISTORY! OR WOMEN SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO VOTE OR OWN PROPERTY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THESE RIGHTS FOR MOST OF HUMAN HISTORY!"

Ayn Rand was a warmonger (and her followers remain so), and I have little use for her.

On the second point, I guess I didn't make my reasoning clear. There was nothing logically impossible about people exercising the rights you list, or others, like freedom of speech or of religion; it's just that bad people were violating other people's rights. On the other hand, I find it hard to identify something as a basic human right if it's a modern invention that humans could not have logically had access to for most of our history.

As I said, I have no interest in rolling back health coverage. Maybe I have an unhealthy interest in pointless, abstract debates with strangers online, though. :)

#30

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 9:02am

Steve C. said: "In our more modern and evolved world, healthcare is an important part of a compassionate and caring world."

I agree with this, and I appreciate your polite and reasoned response. I guess I'm borderline threadjacking, so I'll leave it at that. :)

#31

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 9:43am

Provided that compassion doesn't unfairly or negatively impact those in our country who have earned more, I generally agree. When you force others to give up more of what they earned to honor that "compassion," however, it becomes coerced and corrupt. You cannot mandate compassion. It doesn't work that way.

#32

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 9:44am

Please keep calling. It's working...

Senator Susan Collins (R-Maine) Comes Out Against Health Care Bill

"I shall stay until the wind changes."

#33

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 10:53am

kdogg36 said: "(1) Healthcare involves human labor. No one is born with the right to claim the fruits of other people's labor."

What about fire departments? Is it exploitation of those with expertise in fighting fires that we expect them to show up when we call because we see smoke?

Also, since I'm still here, it's worth listening to the latest Pod Save America (and really, any of them).

https://getcrookedmedia.com/here-have-a-podcast-78ee56b5a323

And this has a great checklist — I'm linking to her main page. Just go down and view the newsletters by date:

https://jenniferhofmann.com/home/weekly-action-checklist-democrats-independents-republicans-conscience/

"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt

Updated On: 6/27/17 at 10:53 AM

#34

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 12:28pm

The phone calls are working!

Senator Ben Cardin from MD just tweeted he's received over 2000 calls in less than a week and challenging GOP senators to release their numbers. I have hope this will go down but we must stay VOCAL and oppose this disgraceful Republican display of ignorance, greed and power.

I Can Has Cheezburger With This?

#35

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 12:42pm

Here:

https://twitter.com/SenatorCardin/status/879419599141339139

"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt

#36

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:04pm

"How can something be a human right if it didn't even exist for most of human history?"

I suggest that it can't be, in principle, but, but advances in medicine, science, and technology are increasingly placing my position on shaky ground. I mean something as mundane as the printing press and its electronic spawns like over-air radio transmitters, coaxial cable TV, and the seemingly ubiquitous Internet are fairly recent inventions against the backdrop of human history. I tend to zero in on the press for two reasons. One, I've got colleagues firmly entrenched on both sides of the PBS funding divide. And two, the Founders saw the need to call out a free press in the very first amendment to the US Constitution. The text follows.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Similarly, I'm surrounded by some very vocal folks who hold diametrically opposed views on net neutrality. It seems there are those amongst us who posit that net neutrality violates the free speech rights of Internet service providers who are nearly universally incorporated entities. I still struggle with the notion of corporate person-hood but that's an aside.

#FactsMatter...your feelings not so much.

Updated On: 6/27/17 at 05:04 PM

#37

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:17pm

Okay, Everyone! This is kind of a reprieve...half the battle. Now when your officials are home for all those July 4th parades and cook-outs, the town halls..speak out and speak UP! This is still so very important to our families, our friends and our country!

Have a wonderful 4th of July weekend holiday!!

I Can Has Cheezburger With This?

#38

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 5:31pm

Yes, and whether or not you attend town halls, keep calling, faxing, and emailing! And if you don't live in a red state, asking your red state friends to do the same.

"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt

#39

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/27/17 at 7:04pm

Predictably, McConnell pulled the bill...pure political theater. Good job gang!

Details here courtesy of thehill.com

#FactsMatter...your feelings not so much.

#40

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/28/17 at 5:37pm

Kdogg you disappoint me. There has to be morally a certain guaranteed modicum of health care. If the rich can get the best doctors so be it. We have to end this hammer of fear of medical expenses. It does our psyche no good.

Stephanatic

#41

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/28/17 at 7:46pm

South Florida said: "Kdogg you disappoint me. There has to be morally a certain guaranteed modicum of health care."

I've said it twice, but let me say it one more time: I don't support rolling back health care provisions for anyone. I'll go further: universal government coverage would be better than the Frankenstein monster of Obamacare (or Trumpcare).

In an ideal, rational, prosperous world, would I support some other method of providing care to everyone? Yes, I definitely would. But I don't regard that as something within the realm of possibility in my lifetime, so I don't spend any time or effort on it.

#42

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/29/17 at 2:44pm

Except when you post about it here.

And, presumably, where you post about it elsewhere.

And, presumably, when you have discussions about it in real life.

And, presumably, when you do any reading about it on your own time.

it must be frustrating to have a thing with zero practical value as an ideal.

CHURCH DOOR TOUCAN GAY MARKETING PUPPIES MUSICAL THEATER STAPLES PERIOD OIL BITCHY SNARK HOLES

#43

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/29/17 at 6:51pm

Growl, always strong, at his best when funny.

Stephanatic

#44

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/29/17 at 9:06pm

themysteriousgrowl said: "Except when you post about it here.
And, presumably, where you post about it elsewhere.
And, presumably, when you have discussions about it in real life.
And, presumably, when you do any reading about it on your own time.
it must be frustrating to have a thing with zero practical value as an ideal."

I'm not sure what you mean. I spend zero time arguing against providing healthcare to people. I spent maybe three minutes total discussing my abstract question on this thread, and regretted even that expenditure of time. I can't remember the last time I brought up the subject with anyone else online or in real life.

If you're talking more broadly about libertarianism, well... I do spend a lot of time arguing for an end to perpetual warfare, for the failed war on drugs, and for more open and humane immigration, both on the internet and in the real world. I don't regard this as useless, and it's certainly not something I'm ashamed of. I don't know if you've paid attention to my activities in other threads, but I've probably got 20 posts about those issues (especially war and drone strikes) for each of the few posts in this thread about healthcare.

I'm happy to cede the political field to progressives on this issue and other economic issues, as long as they don't ignore my core issues, on which we should be largely in agreement. Democrats will get my vote in coming elections if they can enunciate a real alternative to Trump's authoritarianism on things like the drug war, drone killings, and immigration.

Finally I'm not sure why you'd have anything in particular against me, unless it's because I don't identify as a progressive or a Democrat. Functionally, in the age of Trump, I'm pretty close.

#45

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/29/17 at 11:00pm

Kdogg, we disagree. You can't be a libertarian and then say that NHC is a good idea. You contradict yourself, get a moral focus. Or admit that you're a Rand Paul protegee.

Stephanatic

#46

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 6/30/17 at 6:51am

South Florida said: "Kdogg, we disagree. You can't be a libertarian and then say that NHC is a good idea. You contradict yourself, get a moral focus. Or admit that you're a Rand Paul protegee."

Well, I regret getting into this thread to begin with, so I won't engage further on healthcare. I'm not sure why it wouldn't make you happy that some libertarians (I know there are others) are eager to work with progressives in fighting Trump's authoritarianism, even if it means forgetting about some of our other goals for the foreseeable future.

In the age of Trump and his ilk, I'll eagerly support Democrats who offer a real alternative to Trump. I don't expect them to be libertarians; I don't expect to agree with them on gun rights or competition in education or tax rates. I do expect them to offer a positive alternative to Trump on the issues that are important to me. Even there, I'm not naive enough to expect perfection, but it won't be enough to be slightly less committed than Republicans to global warfare and mass incarceration.

I never liked Rand Paul. Sometimes he said good things that others weren't saying, but I didn't really trust him. His acquiescence to Trump's policies on the military and immigration have borne this out.

#47

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 7/3/17 at 4:31pm

If anything is going to succeed in the next elections it's the clarion call for National health care. This was started in the last election by Sanders more than ever before. Any candidate has to make this their #1 focus, it's what can unite the Democrats. Anything less will lose, this is the issue that needs gusto.

Stephanatic

#48

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 7/3/17 at 4:50pm

Agreed.

Also, listen to Ben Wikler: find out if your senator is going to be in a 4th of July parade/at a festival or fair or whatever, and thank them or counter them. Bring signs and friends!

https://twitter.com/benwikler/status/879869234096091136

"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt

#49

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 7/5/17 at 2:03pm

Update from Andy Slavitt. Please keep calling and faxing your senators' regional offices!

https://twitter.com/ASlavitt/status/882635565195288576

"This thread reads like a series of White House memos." — Mister Matt

#50

Trumpcare 2.1

Posted: 7/6/17 at 1:16pm

No debate going on here. Always sorry to see those with different opinions too intimidated to post.

Not that I by any means support the Trump plan. It is going nowhere.

But people should realize that Obamacare has no chance of success. If one is going to favor the poor over the rich, then be sure that the government will pay to meet the extra needs of the poor. Insurance companies are not going to take the hit.

Here is one of several scores of articles you can find concerning the rate at which health insurance plans are pulling out of Obamacare.

Aetna chief executive Mark Bertolini said Wednesday that the Affordable Care Act's exchanges - the marketplaces where consumers can buy individual health coverage under President Barack Obama's signature health-care law - are in a "death spiral."

http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2017/02/aetna_ceo_says_obamacare_in_de.html

The non-profit health care insurer set up by New York State, Health Republic, to deal with the low income people did not make it through two years without collapsing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/new-york-health-co-op-ordered-to-close-down/2015/09/25/5022acde-63b2-11e5-b38e-06883aacba64_story.html?utm_term=.7e37dfce78e5

When a health insurer accepts a person who already has a serious illness, it is not insuring the person. Insurance is when you have a large group of people without a disease, and the cost of paying for the minority that eventually contract the disease is divided among all those who did not contract the disease.

New York companies remaining in the health marketplace request average premium increases of 17 percent for 2017. This is clearly not sustainable.

This Country has really got to give up on creating health insurance by focusing on the spending sign. It is the cost side that should be in play. Health providers and drug companies just pull huge numbers out of the air and the insurers generally pay them and pass on the increase in higher premiums.

Why should a root canal cost $3500? It is about an hour of drilling and an hour of creating a cap and putting it into place. Why should drug companies, always trying to sell the drugs they have under patent because they can charge ten times more from them than for a generic drug. be allowed to extend their patent by producing an "extended release" of a drug about to come off patent, so they can continue to sell the "extended" version, with no noticeable improvement for effect, for several years longer?

I believe in free market economy, but at some point we have to realize that there is massive unjust enrichment going on, and the government must step in. When Canadians are paying less for American prescription drugs than Americans, does it take a blow to the head to see that something crooked is occurring?

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