Why do people equate "dark" with "realistic?"

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:02am

Something Munk said on the "Oliver!" thread (Main Board) prompted me to start this discussion. And it's nothing to do with Munk at all, because SO many people feel the way he does, and it's always bothered me... but...

Why do people equate "dark" with "realistic?"

I'm talking about in movies, books, plays, musicals, what-have-you.

Why is a jail cell any more realistic than a flower garden? (I know I'm oversimplifying here.)

Why is pain and suffering any more realistic than comfort and love?

Why do people gravitate toward the "dark," embrace it, relate to it, analyze it, ROMANTICIZE it, and place more relevance on its "realism" in the world? I think it's because they're more attracted to it emotionally. Fear, sadness, grief, and anger are easier, more "tangible" emotions to identify than happiness, content, bliss and humor/laughter. The former group knocks us upside the head, and we feel it. It hurts. But somehow the latter group has gotten a bum rap. They're not realistic. They don't count. They're dull.

We recognize what is wrong with the world FAR more easily than what is right with it. We seek it out, too.

But does that make it any more "realistic?"

[SorryGrateful]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:04am

Those are interesting questions, besty. I don't have an answer, but I'm really intrigued.

[StageManager2]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:18am

For many of us, fear, sadness, grief, and anger are our daily life (thus our reality), whereas happiness, contentment, bliss, and laughter is an unreachable dream (therefore unrealistic).

Updated On: 5/23/07 at 11:18 AM

[DG]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:21am

"happiness, contentment, bliss, and laughter are an unreachable dream"

I believe these are all responses based on individual choice. Maybe the reluctance of some to take reponsibility for the experience of their own lives is at the core of the problem.

The classic 'half full or half empty' conundrum.

[chicolini]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:24am

Don't forget the subtle subliminal message of most "dark" works: as miserable as your life is, at least it's not as bad as THIS.

If I see a movie where everything works out and they all live happily ever after, it bothers me because "real" life never seems to work out that way. Or at least it bothers me if I'm dissatisfied with something in my own life at that point.

In a twisted way, a dark movie can seem more realistic because it doesn't highlight a happiness the viewer may not have at that moment, but still gives the psychological lift of "at least I'm not as screwed as those people".

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:25am

Or perhaps the Horatio Alger, you can overcome anything, belief.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:25am

I gravitate toward the light because I believe that we are all capable of limitless possibilities and that dwelling on or in the dark is at best an affectation and at worst an addiction or even a disease.

[robbiej]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:29am

Oh...I kinda like the yin/yang thing. Lightness, happiness, bliss, anger, desperation and sadness are all a part of living life. I prefer to give expression to all of those moments. I don't always succeed...but I try...Lord, how I try.

[DG]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:37am

I think Chicolini makes very valid points.

But I also think that touches on the fact that many people seem to have allowed others (especially the media!) to dictate to them what SHOULD make them happy.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:40am

PJ - and that, my friend, is because you walk in the light. I've seen it.

My father was one of those "dark = real" folks. When I had a stillborn child his words of "confort" were "Well, now you know what life is really all about." So sad to that he spent 83 years living out that POV. I think he (and others like him) believe that there is a danger in focusing too much on the light and happy and by doing so one lacks balance and lives in denial. But how much light IS too much? Truly a balance in perspective is necessary, but which side do you prefer to DWELL on and do you dwell on it to the exclusion of the opposite?

The choice, I fear, may be a genetic predisposition more than it is a learned response.
Updated On: 5/23/07 at 11:40 AM

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:42am

I think balance is key, and yes, more realistic. The scale can tip the other way, absolutely.

But when something is really dark, tragic, overwrought with depression, fear and anxiety... people seldom point out that it isn't very realistic.

To me, it's equally as unrealistic as the Happily Ever After scenario.

[Bluemoon]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:46am

Maybe part of it is lowering our expectations so that we're not disappointed by expecting to find the good and unhappiness occurs. It's a defense mechanism.


Edited for multiple typos. I'm pessimistic about improving my typing skills. Updated On: 5/23/07 at 11:46 AM

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:47am

Or perhaps it's simply that the natural tendency of the homo sapiens species is towards violence, anger, and impulsive behavior, just like other animals, but it's our advanced neurobiological evolutionary development and aeons of socialization that make us strive to counteract that nature by being overly light and positive; and all this "dark" art is simply giving us permission, for that brief span of time, to acknowledge that basic, instinctive dark part of ourselves?

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:52am

B12: My comment wasn't really meant to be taken out of context. People were complaining that OLIVER! is a good show, if a bit dark. My stance on the subject was that there's nothing unnecessarily dark about OLIVER! - it perfectly captures the grit, crime, and fear of the underworld of London. That's what I meant.

To the same effect, I have the same feelings about the Broadway production of MARY POPPINS. It's just not realistic ENOUGH.

Do you see what I mean?


Don't place an umbrella over what I said...it doesn't apply to everything. I was just talking about OLIVER!.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 11:56am

Y'all need to read

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:26pm

"Don't place an umbrella over what I said...it doesn't apply to everything. I was just talking about OLIVER!."

Munk, apparently you need to reread the first sentence of my post.

This discussion thread was prompted by your post, but "had nothing to do with you" or what you said. The discussion didn't belong in the "Oliver!" thread (obviously) or on the Main Board for that matter.

Your comment "inspired" me nonetheless to post this, but it really doesn't have anything to do with you.

There is a different issue mentioned by some here too, which I agree with: Dark "plays" better than Light. And that's not really what I mean by this thread. Stories obviously need conflict, struggles, danger, etc. Because, frankly, if you sit on a stage (or in a film, or in the pages of a book) and smile for hours on end, your audience isn't going to be interested.

Just like self-pity doesn't play well (I WISH to God that many of our modern, playwrights, actors, screenwriters, directors, etc. would REMEMBER this). It's far more interesting for audiences to pity a character than it is to watch the character pity himself/herself at great length. And dark plot elements do generally play better than lighter elements.

But that's not what people say when they criticize art. They say that the story was more REALISTIC because it was darker. It's the "reality" of darkness over anything uplifting/light/happy that doesn't make sense to me. It's a strange comment, yet so many people say it and believe it.

Updated On: 5/23/07 at 12:26 PM

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 12:59pm

People don't believe they can have love and kindness. When someone says "I love you," the first thing they think is "What do they want?" or "How long will it last?" IF they say "I love You", immediately they wonder "will they say it back" or "did I just say something I shouldn't." We spend our lives waiting for the other shoe to drop.

I try to not see things as "bad" and "good" or "dark" and "light" but instead choose to see things as experiences that create me as a being.

I actually shy away rather quickly from those who see everything as potentially bad or negative.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 1:03pm

I also think it has a lot to do with the increase of cynicism in this country in the past 40-50 years, of which there was a sharp incline since the early 90s.

[SonofMammaMiaSam]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 1:04pm

There's a reason that some of my favorite songs are: Tomorrow, Mountain High, Let the Sun Shine, and Here Comes the Sun.

[TheatreDiva612]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 1:08pm

PalJoey- amazing book!!!

[DayDreamer]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 2:24pm

I strongly recommend:

[kelzama]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 3:02pm

I'm not one to equate dark with realistic anymore than I am to equate light with fantasy.

[Cruel_Sandwich]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 3:32pm

it's because everyone's got angst in their pants.

[lildogs]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 5:54pm

Well, if you're talking about film, literature, etc, periods of Realism usually follow a conflict or war of some kind. Obviously, the experience influences art and artists, which link the tragic with what's considered "real." So I think there's a real history/art connection there too.

I think people view dark and gritty as more real, because that's what's in the news--the news is mostly sad and/or violent, so people get the impression that that's what the world is like.

I think Jaily also makes a very good and very florid case.

[raphael06]

Posted: 5/23/07 at 5:58pm

"For many of us, fear, sadness, grief, and anger are our daily life (thus our reality), whereas happiness, contentment, bliss, and laughter is an unreachable dream (therefore unrealistic)."

That is really really sad. I hope that is not the case for you!