World War III
World War III
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
World War III#0
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:17am
"I think of the Into the Woods line, "Can't we just live out our lives, with our children and our wives?" and I find myself hoping, and keeping my fingers crossed."
Namo wrote this just a few days ago, talking about how he tries to maintain a sense of hope about the state of the world - and I've been thinking about that a lot.
It seems that each new day brings more stories about the extreme feelings that are getting entrenched around the world, unfortuantely centering on the foundation of religious belief - and that's a path that we as humans have been down before. But this time there are greater possibilities for wide-spread devastation.
Are we headed inexorably toward a world-wide conflict again, or will it be possible to pull back to our respective corners and realize the extreme danger with which we are flirting?
re: World War III#1
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:28am
Wow what an interesting topic to think about. I think (at least I would hope) that most people know that if there is another World War, it would be teh most devestating ever, and could in fact ve the end of the world. Think about it. With the technology it could just really amount to who would use nuclear weapons first, then once one state did, all other capable states would follow. Some would say leaders may just condemn the use of the weapons, but since there are so many countries that have alliances with other countries, there would be retaliation.
If there is a WWIII it will be in the Middle East, and I honestly do not think it would end up in a full out World War. So many nations depend on that area for oil that I believe other nations would team up against them. It would be a very different than the past two though.
In the end, I think if it even looked like a third world war was coming all world leaders would try every single diplomatic strategy before letting it result in a full out World war.
re: World War III#2
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:45am
I was just thinking about this today....and DG it is scary....embassies being attacked, US allowing a Middle East owned company to run the Port of Miami, our total disregard and distain of anything non-Christian.......
I am not a bible person, but Revelations does saw the final war will be in the Middle East.
All this Bird Flu crap has me NOT wanting to go to Europe next July....but we are.....
rather than WW3, it's more like the Third Crusade is coming....
re: World War III#3
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:45am
DG, how can we predict what will happen in the future? I say future because if another WW should occur, I don't think it would be anytime soon, In fact, I'm not sure there WILL be another one. Why? It's probable that entire nations could be eliminated once alll the nuclear weapons are deployed and I'm not sure if any country is anxious to be totally wiped out. WWs I and II didn't post that much of a threat to the entire world. Now there's enough technology to make leaders think a little harder.
I don't see an end to religion-generated strife though.
world war iii#4
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:46am
i'm reading an interesting article in this month's new yorker that's talking about the state of india and pakistan as nuclear powers an the complexity of world diplomacy when fanatics are added into the mix. i think we're at the most dangerous time in human history because there are so many people willing to sacrifice not just themselves, but everyone around them in the name of their god.
the cold war was cold because of the bizarre calculus of m.a.d. (mutual assured destruction). neither side was willing to accept the catastrophic destruction that such a conflict would have unleashed. but what of now? i'd like to think that even though many are willing to sacrifice their lives to murder others that their leaders are still greedy and self important enough to avoid conflict of this scale merely to maintain power.
but what if a true fanatic was able to rise to power? what if someone took the reins of a nuclear power who truly believed that thos who do not share his or her beliefs are not worthy of life? a person whose conviction in their own warpd sense of the almighty insulated them from any serious consideration of the consequences of a nuclear exchange. or just as bad, someone deluded enough to believe that because of their geography, the world's dependence on oil or popular opinion, such an action could be taken without an equal response. one miscalculation with nuclear arms could be all it takes.
i wish i could have as much faith as caitie in the power of diplomacy, but i don't. at all.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
world war iii#5
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:53amPapa, I guess I have more faith that the fanatics in the world are fewer and smarter than that. How many nations are willing to sacrifice themselves in the name of religion? Outside of the mideast?
world war iii#6
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:55amsmart fanatic is an oxymoron......
world war iii#7
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:56amsubstitute cautious then, Elphaba.
re: World War III#8
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:56am
If only Bush hadn't squandered our resources on a wrongheaded war in Iraq, we could be dealing seriously with the real threats being made by Iran.
However, the whole world knows that the neocons running the United States nowadays don't have the money, the troops, the resources or the brainpower to wage a battle against religious fundamentalists with nuclear weapons. Under Bush, we've become paper tigers: the object of scorn and derision from Christians and hatred from Muslims.
If only Bush hadn't lied to get us into Iraq, we might be taking a real leadership position in the newly dancerous struggle for world peace.
world war iii#9
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:56am
It would not take "many" nations being willing to sacrifice themselves, it just takes the wrong one to be willing.
world war iii#10
Posted: 2/19/06 at 11:59am
I take that back Elphaba, there indeed can be a smart fanatic. Intelligence and mental illness are not mutually exclusive.
world war iii#11
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:04pm
Jane.....what I live by today is expect the worst and hope for the best......
I believe there will be a war. I am not convinced Nukes will be used, but if so....with the current administration, it'll be America who uses them first if they are used......and then all Hell will break loose.
We have NO idea where all the former Soviet nukes are........India and Pakistan are powder kegs waiting to explode.....(but then most of the Stans are wacko).
The world is a scary place right now.
world war iii#12
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:08pmI agree-the world IS a scary place. my opinion on the possibility of WWIII stems from the devastation that would likely ensue should all the powers with nuclear weapons become involved. Perhaps the consequences are too overwhelming and final for me to consider really happening.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
world war iii#13
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:19pmJane, although I tend to agree with you in theory (I've always resonated with Anne Frank's opinion on goodness of heart,) I have to pause at papa's question concerning a world leader who doesn't have those boundaries - and then I can't help but think of the current Iranian leader.
world war iii#14
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:19pm
There already is a war going on - it has just been a cultural war with very few weapons. It is premised upon the rise of fundamentalist religions in both the east and west, and the growing intolerance of others. We have aided and abetted the growth of radicalism in Islam by our policies, our alliancs, and our failure to recognize the long term consequences of supporting regimes, like Saudi Arabia, solely because we need their oil. Wealth has not been evenly distributed from the money raised by all those dead dinasours now running our cars (I read somewhere that the bodies of dinasours at least help contribute to oil) and in the process, the growing divide between the haves, which look to the west for many of the "stuff" they want, and the have nots, which blame the west for supporting despotic regimes.
This divide has been used by mullahs and imans to further encourage radicalism and hate, which then encourages those in the west to start using words like "Crusade" (Whicb Bush did use when referring to our efforts to fight and kill Bin Laden - what a freaking idiot) which then further fuels the speculation that all we want is the oil, and damn their individual religious beliefs.
We are already at war. The weapons, for the most part, have been words and terrorist acts. Bush's failed policy in Iraq, and his inability to realize you cannot create democracy in a region that has no history of it has further weakened our ability to both defend ourselves and aggressively go after those we really are at war with. Iraq and the failures there may be the final card that brings our entire house of cards down. We need to find ways to live peacefully and co-exist with Islam. The more the west incurs forcefully into regioins in the mid-east the less likely this is to happen.
We need to become independent completely of the Mid-east oil. Because until we are not help hostage economically, we can never get out of this cycle which will undoubtedly lead to a much bigger and more violent exchange.
There are nuclear weapons unaccounted for from the USSR. India has one. Pakistan has one. Israel has one. Iran has one (I think) North Korea has one. One boom, and the world as we know it is over.
And, for many of us who do not believe that Christ is coming back in our lifetime to save us, this does not mean salvation, it means total destuction and death.
Religion and politics and force = bad news, no matter what religion you are referring to.
But, I have not had my coffee yet, and am off to breakfast with my sister - perhaps I will a little more optomisitic when I return - but I doubt it.
world war iii#15
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:23pmDG-true-I'm loathe to expect the worst from people. I'm always shocked when someone does something really mean. Take it to the worldwide level and I guess I am naive about what humans are capable of.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
world war iii#16
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:32pmJane - I can no longer claim to any naivte concerning human potential for evil. However, I truly feel that - for myself - to fully surrender to that expectation of what we are limited to is to give up the claim to my own soul. I choose to live in hope - if only because I know the good that is in my own head and heart.
world war iii#17
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:34pmNIcely put, and I'm with you.
world war iii#18
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:40pm
I may be naive, but being involved in politics I have seen that the number of people who are good actually outnumber the ones that are just in it for the power. And I am not talking about just the US. Most people involved in politics do want to help improve their state and would not do something so rash that their entire state would be destroyed.
That said, the location of some nuclear weapons. If one terrorist gets ahold of one...it could be the end.
And DG i agree completly
world war iii#19
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:41pmlife without hope is not worth living. but hope alone will not save humanity. there is evil in the world and someone must deal with it. the type of evil that cannot be reasoned with, bargained with, contained or bought off. when confronted with such evil, one must be prepared to kill or be killed. one can hope that such a confrontation will not occur, but if and when it does to not be prepared for it is to invite death in for tea and crumpets having just painted a bulls-eye on your forehead.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
world war iii#20
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:54pmBut how much is real and how much is fear tactics? It's no secret how much this admin has overexaggerated this evil and the threat of terror.
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
world war iii#21
Posted: 2/19/06 at 12:56pmUnfortuantely, papa, I think examples of your perspective are coming into sharper focus each passing day - hence the genesis of this thread.
world war iii#22
Posted: 2/19/06 at 1:08pm
jerby, i think that 9/11, london, madrid, beslan, bali, riyadh, mumbai, istanbul, manilla, sharm el-sheikh, new delhi, and others too numerous to mention argue that the threat is real. you may choose to say that it is mere fear mongering by the administration, but i'd say that the body count is against you.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
Broadway Legend Joined: 11/2/05
world war iii#23
Posted: 2/19/06 at 1:11pmJerby - the current situation that makes me the most tense - this 'cartoon' nonsense - doesn't have anything to do with the US. There are other factors involved in the world besides our country.
world war iii#24
Posted: 2/19/06 at 1:13pm
Now before you get all riled up, I wasn't denying ANY of that. I wasn't denying anything you said (though I do find the abstract use of the word "evil" rather Bushian and trite). 
I just wonder how much directly is BS wagging the dog. The first year or so after 9/11, the Bush admin had us thinking a massive attack was due any day at any moment---but just might be stopped if you let us pass any laws and budgets we ask for!! It reeked of Cold War fear tactics and Religious Right fear tactics of "give us money and we'll stop these America and family destroying gays!!".
That's all--it IS directed at Bush, but I know it is thought Clinton was guilty of wagging the dog, so I open the discussion to a non-partisan playing field.
Plus, it feels like the climate right now is Republicans, Democrats, and Bush supporters. So, I hope you know that I no longer exactly attack Republicans when I attack Bush. 
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