school voucher's logic

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:05am

I was trying to wrap my head around the logic of the school voucher program, and I just can't seem to make sense of it. If I understand the program right (and maybe this is where my problem is coming from), with this program parents will have the right to choose what school to send their kid to - so if they're not happy with the public school they're in, they can have the government step in and pay for them to go elsewhere. Now, if that is right, how is this a solution to the problem? Rather than FIXING the public schools by putting the money into them (which is what's needed), they're just shipping the money elsewhere to private institutions. In other words, if this system were in effect nation-wide, the public school system would just collapse, privatizing ALL schools, but being funded by the government (because who in their right mind would still send their kid to an underfunded public school when the option is there for something else)? Essentially, this program shows a complete lack of faith in the public schools - we might as well just give them up entirely and let education be handled privately. Doesn't this then cause a conflict of interest? The government can't regulate these schools, thus making null and void all this money spent on NCLB.

The ramifications of this just make my head hurt. It's like the Republicans said: "Well, if parents have choices, they can't complain" -- and they never looked beyond their noses!

Someone please help me understand this...

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:16am

Working in a Public School I can tell you that vouchers would be a nightmare.

The concept behind vouchers is that it would provide money to parents so they can send their children to private schools if they wish.

What people do not understand is that unlike public schools, private schools can kick you out for no reason. So if your child has a behavior problem or is not performing well enough in a private school...they can kick you out and send you back to your home public school.

Working in a public school in an underprivlaged urban area I see this happen all the time. There is an "October 15th" federal count where all schools must report to the government the number of special needs students in their school. This determines the amount of funding the school gets. EVERY year we see a huge influx of students from charter schools into our school after October 15th. What happens is the Charter schools kick kids out (mostly those with behavior problems) after the count so they STILL receive the funding for those students but no longer have to deal with them. We do...and without the funding.

Vouchers would make this problem worse. Because these challanging students would continue to get returned back to the public school...which would be even more underfunded due to vouchers. So now the Public school is underfunded...filled with the most challanging students...and labled as a "failing" school.

John McCain also said last night that he doesn't think teachers need to be certified. Having experience in the military on in the business world in no way prepares you to teach a class. John McCain's view on education terrify me.

[brdlwyr]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:23am

This month I have to pay property taxes and expensive high school tuition. The local public schools are NOT an option for my kids.

Regardless, I do not support vouchers. We must keep the money in the public system and continue to demand higher standards. Maybe a few billion from Iraq would help?

[Gothampc]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:31am

The voucher system provides a means of competition for the schools.

In the current system, the teacher's union has zero respect for children or education. All the union wants to do is put as many of their members in positions as possible regardless of whether the person can actually teach or not.

With a voucher system in place, poorly performing schools would be obvious. They would have a Scarlet V so to speak. Carrying a Scarlet V, they would be forced to either fix themselves up or close down.

As it stands now, the only winner is the teacher's union.

[violet72]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:35am

Yeah Vouchers to me would be the death of public education. Also if they "choose" a school who is responsible for providing transportation to these schools? Because if it is a parent it will never work. I can't see a parent from Camden driving their kid to Haddonfield every day.

Also agree with the in flux of students getting kicked out of charter schools...today we have 10 newly registered student coming from charters and they were either behavior problems or special needs

What people who are not in education don't seem to understand is that the reason we are so far "behind" other countries in education is because our education system is so different. We believe in fair and equal education for everyone. In Europe most children are tracked, meaning they are tested and if they are not smart enough they are put into different programs or schools. I have a friend who is Japanese she told me if you don't study hard there you stop going to school when you are in high school and put in the work force or are given a trade. Only the smart and talented people get to continue their education.

I am not saying this is right or wrong, but having motivated students is alot easier to teach then having students who don't want to be there and don't really care.

In fact in the 1980's a member of the Chinese government came to DC to visit with Reagan to talk about Education...Reagan wanted to pick his brain about education when the Chinese official said he could not get over the fact that we educate everyone, that they don't do that in China.

I also believe because we have a test measuring these kids we have to teach test answers and can't teach children how to learn or think for themselves.

I hope our next pres will have a person who has been in education as the secretary of education. Someone that knows that test scores do not define a child.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:38am

I do not support vouchers or charter schools. In New Orleans before Katrina there were 123 public schools, 7 charter schools. After there are only 4 public schools and 31 charters. What happened there was and is disaster capitalism.

I'm actually fairly upset about Obama "supporting" these in any way. I do NOT believe the education system in this country should be privatized. I also feel these measures segregate the population in unfair ways.

I stand by and support the NEA. This idea that an ad hoc approach to fixing public education is breaking it. I don't believe there should be anything called a "bad school." Every child in this country has the right to the same education.

Updated On: 10/16/08 at 11:38 AM

[Calvin]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:38am

private schools can kick you out for no reason. So if your child has a behavior problem or is not performing well enough in a private school...they can kick you out and send you back to your home public school.

Or because the kid is gay. Or because the kid's PARENTS are gay.

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:40am

Goth...once again...you are...so wrong.

Yes everyone knows how greedy teachers are as they sit and make their millions of dollars.

The question is why are schools failing? It's not because of the teachers union. It's because of the flawed NCLB act.

The NCLB act states that all children, including those with special needs, must meet state test scores. So a child with a severe learning diability is expected to perform as well on a standarized test as a student with no disability.

As I mention, I work in a public school in a pretty improvished area. We have a lot of students who were born drug addicted, had no pre-natal care etc and many of them have disabilities that sadly impact their education. But they are expected to meet the same standards as everyone else. And when they don't...our school is labled as a failing school. Meanwhile..the Charter Schools in the area look great. Why? Because like I said in my above post they kick kids out after the 10/15 deadline. Why public schools continue the mission of serving EVERY child...not just the ones who perform well.

Are there bad teachers? Of course. Is more money the only answer? NO. Does there need to be reform? Of course.

But blaming the problem on teachers is idiotic.

[violet72]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:48am

How would failing schools "fix" themselves????? With what money???? How will failing schools be judged???? Cause I know some "blue ribbon" schools that have students classified if they can not pass standardize tests( and these kids are A students with no learning disabilities) so they won't be called a failing school. Also they have to take in account that most of the "failing" schools have more special needs students and behavioral issues (we can't just kick them out like private or charter schools).

How about giving money to these failing schools so they can have the same opportunities as the rich districts????? Or are we to busy giving more money to Iraq??? Invest in programs that are working in schools that are "passing". Early Childhood Education will also help. My school has an Early Childhood center for the past 7 years. Our 7th graders are scoring in the 80 percentile in math and the 90's in Reading

Also in most private schools the teachers are not certified nor do they have a degree in teaching, nor do they have to follow state standards, or testing, or curriculum. I went to a private school for 8 years, when I went to public high school I was a year behind in Math

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:49am

"The voucher system provides a means of competition for the schools."

Yes because we need that. Yes because it's works so well for hospitals. Nothing like making rich white schools the "better" school no one can get into.

"In the current system, the teacher's union has zero respect for children or education."

WRONG. In our current system the government has ZERO respect for the teachers and THAT in turn trickles down to our culture.

"All the union wants to do is put as many of their members in positions as possible regardless of whether the person can actually teach or not."

If there was actually funding to vet teachers it would happen. The union unfortunately has to be on the DEFENSIVE all the time because of administrations like George Bushes. We've nearly 12 years of Republican control in our educational system. IT DOES NOT WORK. George Bush has left an entire generation of kids behind.

Just look at the stats, we have young people illiterate for the first time in generations. MASSIVE dropout rates and unemployment rates we haven't seen in decades.

"With a voucher system in place, poorly performing schools would be obvious."

They are obvious now. Closing them down doesn't solve the problem. People still own houses near there and pay taxes.


Updated On: 10/16/08 at 11:49 AM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:52am

"What people who are not in education don't seem to understand is that the reason we are so far "behind" other countries in education is because our education system is so different. We believe in fair and equal education for everyone. In Europe most children are tracked, meaning they are tested and if they are not smart enough they are put into different programs or schools. I have a friend who is Japanese she told me if you don't study hard there you stop going to school when you are in high school and put in the work force or are given a trade. Only the smart and talented people get to continue their education."

THANK YOU VIOLET!! I was going to make that point myself. It's the reason that American Public Schools sometimes look so far behind in stats!

[violet72]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 11:58am

Goth have you really looked at NCLB? Having 100% of students passing a standardize tests that will never happen. Not every state uses the same standardize tests either.

Yes I know there are bad teachers but most of the ones I know bust their butts everyday. I have seen some kicked, hit, and bit by students but they still teach these students everyday with love and respect. I got a book case thrown at me yesterday, but I am still here and I took this student today and taught her like yesterday was a dream. Most teachers want their students to succeed. We start work at 7am and I don't stop usually til 9pm at night because you have to take work home with you. How can you blame us when we get paid a lousy paycheck in a career where half the time you are blamed for numbers not being good enough even if they aren't realistic

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:02pm

All right, as a teacher also in a public school, I wanted to make sure my information and knowledge of this is right, and you all reassured me that where I was coming from is exactly correct. Violet, Erik, mjhf -- your points are all exactly what I thought.

Goth, your backwards views of things CONTINUE to amaze me. This statement: "the teacher's union has zero respect for children or education" may be the single craziest thing I've read on here.

Updated On: 10/16/08 at 12:02 PM

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:05pm

But that's Goth. He'll make a wild generalization like that..have no facts to back it up and then never come back to answer any of the questions posed to him. Kinda like Palin.

[StockardFan]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:06pm

Amen, Violet!

[ErikJ972]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:12pm

I would love Goth to come into one of our classrooms and see a teacher teaching 8th grade algebra to a cognitively impaired student because she is forced to prepare him for the State test. And see the frustration on that kids face because he can't comprehend it. What charter school will accept this student? Where will he go with his voucher?
Come see that and then tell the teacher it's the teacher's union fault.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:15pm

That's my favorite part of the whole thing - that it's OUR fault the kids are failing. Our system is NOT funded properly to handle the demands placed on it, and I work in a fairly well-off district. The solution to our educational problems, which ALL teachers know, is to A)pay teachers what they're worth, and B)for government to understand the concept of differentiation: one that ANY teacher worth his or her salt lives by on a daily basis.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:23pm

Parents certainly have a HUGE role in this process. Getting their kids ready for school, engaging them, involving themselves. It's very important.

There is certainly a lack of respect for teachers because their salaries are so low. Until the government builds support around these people like they do police, fireman and doctors we will never see a shift.

When you break all of this down there is a systematic agenda by the Republican party to divide this country into two sections: rich and poor. Until we rebuild the middle-class we are not going to see improvements anywhere.
Updated On: 10/16/08 at 12:23 PM

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:37pm

Last night, DC Superintendent Michelle Rhee issued a statement regarding talk in the debate of school vouchers and her support of them.


Excerpt from the Washington Post:

Education reform, largely a footnote in the presidential campaign, emerged at the tail end of last night's debate in a brief exchange between the candidates over whether D.C. Schools Chancellor Michelle A. Rhee supports vouchers or charter schools.

Rhee has not taken a formal position on vouchers but has been generally supportive of school choice. She told the Wall Street Journal this year that she would "never, as long as I am in this role, do anything to limit another parent's ability to make a choice for their child. Ever."

Spokeswoman Dena Iverson said in a statement that Rhee and Mayor Adrian M. Fenty (D) "strongly believe that all families in the District of Columbia must have access to excellent public school options." But the chancellor "disagrees with the notion that vouchers are the remedy for repairing the city's school system," Iverson said.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:43pm

I understand the desire for parents to have a choice, but if the school systems were fixed there wouldn't be the NEED for the choice. How is it that on abortion the parents' should have no choice, but on schooling they should make all the decisions? I swear, the Republicans live in bizarro world.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:44pm

it really isn't the governments job to educate the children of this county. that job is primarily the parents job. school vouchers will help make it clear that the socialist model of education is out dated and doesn't work. private schools have a higher rate of academic achievement and it doesn't cost the government any money. vouchers are a perfect way to phase us out of the expensive socialist education program and lead us to a private profit market based system. i hope it happens soon, because the country needs it.

[jasonf]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:47pm

Why is it not the government's job to provide education? If that argument holds water, then the laws requiring education need to be wiped from the books as well. Oh wait, that doesn't work, we WANT our kids to be educated. But what about those who can't afford to pay for education? Oh, I know, let's have the government pay for it! But wait, it's not the government's job to provide education.

Methinks there's a hole in the damn bucket!

[Unknown User]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:52pm

its not the governments job because the government is established to do the things can't be done by the individual. individuals can teach or hire someone to teach. the government is too big and too intrusive in the live of people. the whole education system needs to be turned over to the private market. you will get a better educated class and not waste taxpayer money one of the most wasteful socialist programs.

[mejusthavingfun]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 12:58pm

"it really isn't the governments job to educate the children of this county. "

In the USA? Do you know your history? Every child in this country has the right to a free PUBLIC school.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 10/16/08 at 1:01pm

Yes, but the right wing depends on an uneducated, uninformed public to maintain their power base.