#51
Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:52pm
I can't find my 'George Bush' or 'Wicked' thread.
the i love george thread — Page 3
#52
Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:52pm
i honestly believe that if we can help iraq to become even a proximity of a democracy that it shows people a different way. you can tell them about freedom and democracy all you want, but until they see it for themselves and experience it, they might just write it off. "that's not our culture." we did iraq rather than iran or syria because both of those places would have fought us tooth and nail. while over 900 lives is too many to lose, it's really nothing compared to what we would be seeing had we tried to go into either place. the assumption was that we'd be welcomed by those who didn't fight, but we didn't plan adequately for those who simply walked away to fight another day, nor did we adequately prepare for the influx of foreign fighters. these were huge screw ups. but i sincerely feel that to have left saddam in power, to have done nothing other than afghanistan was to fail utterly. 12 years he thumbed his nose at the u.n. we took him out because no one, was going to cry too hard for him. assad, would have meant fighting hezbollah. iran well, we have too much ugly history there and it's too easy still to incite folks to see their problems as being america's fault.
i see it as taking a shot. even if it doesn't work, there'll be a few million more people in the midle east who don't hate us and that can't be bad, can it?
i see it as taking a shot. even if it doesn't work, there'll be a few million more people in the midle east who don't hate us and that can't be bad, can it?
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#53
Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:53pm
They got deleted, Wickedforever. Talk to a mod about it.
#54
Posted: 7/28/04 at 4:54pm
Oh, I didn't know they could do that.
And I agree with papalovesmambo.
And I agree with papalovesmambo.
#55
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:09pm
Papa - so you're approaching this whole situation from a foundation of 'of course something had to be done in the Middle East'(more precisely, Islamic fundamentalism) - which I assume is coming from the 9/11 attacks (enough is enough, so to speak, especially when it comes into my backyard.) I, however, feel there is still some merit in trying to find out why they feel the way they do, and see what can be done about that. Perhaps it boils down to the US deciding that not every culture in the world has to be like ours - which might, god forbid, mean accepting that their market capabilities are not ours to profit from. And thrusting our take on democracy down the world's throat implies that we live great lives because of our situation. But I see our lives being more and more controlled by greed, sloth, apathy, ignorance and anger. These are not societal attributes that I would wish on anybody.
#56
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:19pm
" I, however, feel there is still some merit in trying to find out why they feel the way they do, and see what can be done about that."
That really reminds me of the cases when a child kills someone, and people say 'let's find out *why* they did this and change it.' And then video games with violence get banned, the television gets blamed, everything. I don't think that you can exactly pinpoint one thing, you'll pinpoint many things. And you STILL won't be in the exact mindframe of a specific person or group.
And when things are discovered, such as they 'hate America,' for example, what would you propose as a solution? This way of trying to satisfy every mind will not work in the long run.
That really reminds me of the cases when a child kills someone, and people say 'let's find out *why* they did this and change it.' And then video games with violence get banned, the television gets blamed, everything. I don't think that you can exactly pinpoint one thing, you'll pinpoint many things. And you STILL won't be in the exact mindframe of a specific person or group.
And when things are discovered, such as they 'hate America,' for example, what would you propose as a solution? This way of trying to satisfy every mind will not work in the long run.
#57
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:20pm
i dunno, d, i'll take our culture even as dangerously close as it is to sliding back towards the 50's as opposed to regimes that accept and encourage spousal abuse, the treatment of women as property and an ethic towards homosexuality that makes gw look like larry kramer. yes, we're greedy, lazy, bored, ignorant and angry, but we also don't go around cutting off heads and televising it. nor do we teach utter and total hatred in our schools and leave out children with nothing more than a good understanding of the qur'an and a burning desire to return to the glory days of the caliphate.
it's easy to see why they hate. millions of people with little more than a square of dirt. who can they blame for this? the jews and the americans specifically and in general, infidels. do they blame their leaders for the fact that they've squandered fortune after fortune of oil dollars on palaces and mosques while doing nothing to improve the lives of their people? no, they look for an easy enemy. i mean it worked for hitler when he was able to convince good little german boys and girls to kill jews like it was gonna get them to heaven quicker. here you've got people who have absolutely nothing who are promised that their pain and suffering will end and they will find paradise if they blow themselves up.
it's not about us imposing our will on people, it's about showing them that corrupt leaders are their problem, not outside forces and that there is another way. in the process, if we can show them that we are not the devil, all the better.
it's easy to see why they hate. millions of people with little more than a square of dirt. who can they blame for this? the jews and the americans specifically and in general, infidels. do they blame their leaders for the fact that they've squandered fortune after fortune of oil dollars on palaces and mosques while doing nothing to improve the lives of their people? no, they look for an easy enemy. i mean it worked for hitler when he was able to convince good little german boys and girls to kill jews like it was gonna get them to heaven quicker. here you've got people who have absolutely nothing who are promised that their pain and suffering will end and they will find paradise if they blow themselves up.
it's not about us imposing our will on people, it's about showing them that corrupt leaders are their problem, not outside forces and that there is another way. in the process, if we can show them that we are not the devil, all the better.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#58
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:25pm
Guenevere - so your alternative is to 'lock and load' and shoot at anything that moves? All I'm saying is that, contrary to a picture that some are trying to paint, I don't think it is necessary to chalk a particular mindset up to being inherrantly evil - without even considering why it's there in the first place. I admit that it might be perfectly and blindly naive to think that we might, in the end, rise up to the possibilities inherrent in our sentience - but I am not willing to completely acquiesce to an 'us versus them' mentality. I have come out of the cave, and simply assume that others may want to as well.
#59
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:31pm
Where did I hint that I want to mow down every moving being over there? I didn't- anywhere in my message.
I find your theory to be quite idealistic. And just because I feel that it isn't practical to probe into probe into a specific mindset and think that there will be a solution. For example, with terrorists, even though we may know everything that goes on in their head- there is NO WAY to negotiate or solve those problems.
I don't believe that we are acting on an extreme, believe me, this isn't extreme. I think that you have to realize that in some sense, we're not always dealing with regular people. Some things can not be appeased simply by us 'changing' ourselves and our country to please other nations.
We can't please everyone, and I'm being practical when saying it. And I feel that Iraq shouldn't have stayed the way it was, and am glad that change is on the way- I can hope that it will be for the better.
I find your theory to be quite idealistic. And just because I feel that it isn't practical to probe into probe into a specific mindset and think that there will be a solution. For example, with terrorists, even though we may know everything that goes on in their head- there is NO WAY to negotiate or solve those problems.
I don't believe that we are acting on an extreme, believe me, this isn't extreme. I think that you have to realize that in some sense, we're not always dealing with regular people. Some things can not be appeased simply by us 'changing' ourselves and our country to please other nations.
We can't please everyone, and I'm being practical when saying it. And I feel that Iraq shouldn't have stayed the way it was, and am glad that change is on the way- I can hope that it will be for the better.
Updated On: 7/28/04 at 05:31 PM
#60
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:33pm
i have come out of the cave, and simply assume that others may want to as well.
oh boy, this is gonna go over big, but, d, i think that a great many people who hold power currently and who are trying to get power are intent on doing the exact opposite of this and are in fact trying to drive people back into the caves. i mean culture aside, if i told you that you should be killed for being gay, that it's ok to beat your wife, that if you steal i'm going to cut your hand off, that if your sister goes out without a male relative or shows a bit of ankle that she can be stoned to death, that if you decide to go to the movies instead of church that we'll lock the doors to the threatre and burn it down with you inside, i think you might think me a bit closer to the cave than you...wouldn't you?
oh boy, this is gonna go over big, but, d, i think that a great many people who hold power currently and who are trying to get power are intent on doing the exact opposite of this and are in fact trying to drive people back into the caves. i mean culture aside, if i told you that you should be killed for being gay, that it's ok to beat your wife, that if you steal i'm going to cut your hand off, that if your sister goes out without a male relative or shows a bit of ankle that she can be stoned to death, that if you decide to go to the movies instead of church that we'll lock the doors to the threatre and burn it down with you inside, i think you might think me a bit closer to the cave than you...wouldn't you?
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#61
Posted: 7/28/04 at 5:42pm
Guenevere - I really didn't have a picture in my mind of people going out hunting, i had more an image of huddling fearfully in a hole and shooting at 'anything that moves' - but I see how my vagueness was easily construed by you. I didn't mean to imply that that's what you were advocating.
papa - I'm not sure I'd go with this whole 'we don't teach hate' thing - especially having gone to Catholic school. The difference, I believe, is in what you said about these people having nothing - and therefore nothing to lose. I firmly believe there are people steeped in ignorant bigoted hate here as well as there - but here they can always go back to their own little corners tucked in front of their boob tubes. The problem is, I don't think we can maintain this path of everybody demanding to have access to whatever they want - eventually, the fact that not everybody can or does have their material desires satisfied is going to bite us in the butt - it already is in the very poor parts of the country, and contrary to what many seem to think, the empirical evidence shows that that segment of the population is growing, not shrinking.
papa - I'm not sure I'd go with this whole 'we don't teach hate' thing - especially having gone to Catholic school. The difference, I believe, is in what you said about these people having nothing - and therefore nothing to lose. I firmly believe there are people steeped in ignorant bigoted hate here as well as there - but here they can always go back to their own little corners tucked in front of their boob tubes. The problem is, I don't think we can maintain this path of everybody demanding to have access to whatever they want - eventually, the fact that not everybody can or does have their material desires satisfied is going to bite us in the butt - it already is in the very poor parts of the country, and contrary to what many seem to think, the empirical evidence shows that that segment of the population is growing, not shrinking.
#62
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:07pm
(RANDOM COMMENT: For whatever reason my eyes keep playing tricks on me. I've twice read the thread title as "the i love garbage thread". And no, that's not some Freudian insight on my political beliefs. I thought it was about the band Garbage, and got all excited. Both times, I was about to click and post my feelings on their style, but then realized that the thread was created by papa, rechecked the title, and realized my error. Ah well.)
I starred in a short film called Magnetic Personality. Check it out!
#63
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:23pm
Papa - of course any sane person has an impulsive reaction to what you describe - one of revulsion and horror. And yet, the question remains, how is this kept in place? By men and their guns, I know - but what has gotten into the heads of those men? They're not ALL megolamaniacs - they're obviously so fearful, greedy or both that they allow themselves to manipulated in that way. I believe the French (if it's not too much of an unpardonable to mention them) faced life under a regime they finally could not tolerate. I didn't see Saddam's head cut off by their own hands. While I absolutely like to think that I want what's best for everyone in the world, I can't help but think that everyone would serve their fellow man best by taking care of their own - and that is something I'm just not sure we're doing very well. I see ALOT of our time, resources, energy and money going to things that I don't think benefit us in the long (or especially short) run. You see it as a gamble that will possibly lead to greater stablization of the region - and subsequently, hopefully our increased security. I see a very crafty, secretive multi-headed beast that cannot be dealt with so simply or forthrightly (and ironically, this was the arguement that I think Guenevere was trying to use to persuede me of the opposite.)
#64
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:43pm
no, d, you didn't see saddam's head cut off by his own people because the last time they tried that was in 1991 after being goaded into by us and then abandoned. he killed 10,000 people to punish that transgression. 10,000. that's 10 times as many people as we've lost in iraq and his was over days and weeks not months and years. he'd established a system which rivaled any dictatorship in history for brutality because he was so unpredictable. sure the khmer rouge and hitler killed more, but his was not mere genocidal, it was more insidious as it was a kind of institutional terrorism akin to his idol stalin's purges (hence the moustache). his goal was not to purify his people, but to terrify them into acquiesence. that's why people lived to tell tales of his horrors. it's very effective to see the who who said, "saddam's a nasty so and so" sitting on the corner with no tongue and with limbs that no longer serve any function. of course they didn't rise up.
now on the other hand, iran has a history of revolution and the mullahs there, while brutal, haven't the kind of taste for sheer scale of murder that saddam had. they are cracking down onstudents there, but for iran to see a functioning iraq next door could be enough to push 'em in the right direction. true the iraqis didn't do it for themselves and to me that increases the good will towards us that will multiply in future generations. not that they aer beholdin' to us, but that they saw that we were willing to fulfill what i considered a debt of honor from 1991. we came back.
as far as helping one's own people, that's all well and good, but the world is too interconnected for us to function too long without stepping on someone's toes or having ours stepped on. i think we need a policy of engagement and if necessary preemption to safeguard our people and our country.
now on the other hand, iran has a history of revolution and the mullahs there, while brutal, haven't the kind of taste for sheer scale of murder that saddam had. they are cracking down onstudents there, but for iran to see a functioning iraq next door could be enough to push 'em in the right direction. true the iraqis didn't do it for themselves and to me that increases the good will towards us that will multiply in future generations. not that they aer beholdin' to us, but that they saw that we were willing to fulfill what i considered a debt of honor from 1991. we came back.
as far as helping one's own people, that's all well and good, but the world is too interconnected for us to function too long without stepping on someone's toes or having ours stepped on. i think we need a policy of engagement and if necessary preemption to safeguard our people and our country.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty
pray to st. jude
i'm a sonic reducer
he was the gimmicky sort
fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective
#65
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:51pm
I don't think anyone is arguing that Saddam is a good leader or deserved to be in power. He is a dictator and terribly oppressive. However it doesn't seem like hes our problem. We cannot fix every country, nor are we trying to. We act like our reasons for being in Iraq are very noble, when in fact they are quite self-serving. Saddam is a terror, but hes not our problem. Let's focus on our own counrty.
#66
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:53pm
But papa- Iraq was the worst possible country to pick. Think of how this looks to someone outside the U.S.- America attacks an oil-rich country that hadn't committed any acts of aggression against them, or sponsored such acts, since 1993. Not good.
Sometimes the U.S. has a moral obligation to interfere in international affairs. I'm no isolationist- it wasn't a realistic policy in the 1940's, and it's even less realistic now. But attacking Iraq was the wrong choice. Especially when we were already up to our asses in work in Afghanistan.
Sometimes the U.S. has a moral obligation to interfere in international affairs. I'm no isolationist- it wasn't a realistic policy in the 1940's, and it's even less realistic now. But attacking Iraq was the wrong choice. Especially when we were already up to our asses in work in Afghanistan.
#67
Posted: 7/28/04 at 6:55pm
papa - I'm intrigued by your notion of 'policy of engagement and if necessary preemption.' It seems to me that that is exactly what other factions of the world have done - and their actions based on their theories haven't gone over too well. I can follow your train of thought completely - and on paper, it looks very worthwhile. What will be interesting to see is what arises from the ashes. As someone pointed out in another thread, the promises offered to Afghanistan have been far from fulfilled.
Another thing is, you have been very derogetory to any thought of what Kerry might - or might not - bring to this situation. I think it's a given that he can't step in and just withdraw - so what is it exactly that you think would happen?
Another thing is, you have been very derogetory to any thought of what Kerry might - or might not - bring to this situation. I think it's a given that he can't step in and just withdraw - so what is it exactly that you think would happen?
#68
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:12pm
"I don't think anyone is arguing that Saddam is a good leader or deserved to be in power. He is a dictator and terribly oppressive. However it doesn't seem like hes our problem. We cannot fix every country, nor are we trying to. We act like our reasons for being in Iraq are very noble, when in fact they are quite self-serving. Saddam is a terror, but hes not our problem. Let's focus on our own counrty."
That kind of thinking will get our asses kicked later.
Just because Saddam is not in the United States does not mean that Iraq's problems will not affect us in the future. Not only that, but it seems horrible not to care about all the people who were killed by him, who had to escape from such brutal tyranny. Do you suggest then, that if Hitler left us alone, we shouldn't have fought then also? That's ridiculous.
That kind of thinking will get our asses kicked later.
Just because Saddam is not in the United States does not mean that Iraq's problems will not affect us in the future. Not only that, but it seems horrible not to care about all the people who were killed by him, who had to escape from such brutal tyranny. Do you suggest then, that if Hitler left us alone, we shouldn't have fought then also? That's ridiculous.
#69
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:17pm
Well Hitler wasn't only ruling in his own country. He was taking over Europe. When Saddam started invading other countries than perhaps we would have a justified reason for invading them. But it seems we're behaving more like Hitler in this situation. Just bring in our armies to totally take over a nation. I know that comment will piss everyone off, and with good reason. I really don't want to compare the US to Hitler. I think our troops are wonderful and I support them with all my heart, I don't support the decision however to send them in the first place. Comparing Saddam to Hitler, while both are terrible men, is ridiculous. The comparisons are few and far between. YOu could just as easily compare Bush to Hitler. And while I don't think its right that the Iraqi people were suffereing, we're not doing anything to help the citizens of other countires who are living in oppression. Thats not why we went to Iraq. To say it is is downright naive.
#70
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:21pm
George Hearn
George Washington
George Washington Carver
George Orwell
George Stephanapolous
Just a few George's whom I love
George Washington
George Washington Carver
George Orwell
George Stephanapolous
Just a few George's whom I love
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#72
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:35pm
Anyone ever heard of a little country called Kuwait? That's like totally me and my girlfriends tiny oil rich country.
Hamlet's father.
#73
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:42pm
CKeaton - i love how you said "me and my girlfriend" to totally make fun of me! You are so witty I like totally can't believe it! You should have your own show or something. I'm mean you are just too cool with all your witty bantor! It is clever to remember everything everyone has ever said and then bring it up months later in a completely unrelated subject. You're my hero.
#74
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:43pm
Well, Ferris Bueller is *my* hero.
"One no longer loves one's insight enough once one communicates it."
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
The opposite of creation isn't war, it's stagnation.
#75
Posted: 7/28/04 at 7:44pm
"Comparing Saddam to Hitler, while both are terrible men, is ridiculous. The comparisons are few and far between. YOu could just as easily compare Bush to Hitler."
Oh no, not the Bush-Hitler thing AGAIN.
"And while I don't think its right that the Iraqi people were suffereing, we're not doing anything to help the citizens of other countires who are living in oppression. Thats not why we went to Iraq. To say it is is downright naive."
We ARE helping other countries, but our focus right now is on the Middle East. I think that it is naive to think that every other country is going ignored. And isn't liberation a benefit enough? That wasn't the sole reason given, and you have a right to be bitter about THAT, but they way you're talking- it's like we shouldn't have gone in there and left it alone and let them suffer.
One thing that I can say about the Hitler/Saddam thing is that many people were oppressed both ways. And I think that liberation is a benefit. We can't be on top of every problem, but Iraq was painted as the biggest threat, not just by our intelligence, but the intelligence of other countries.
Even with all the flaws, you have to consider if that you're given intelligence by different countries, you'd kill yourself if you didn't take any action and something bad happened later.
Oh no, not the Bush-Hitler thing AGAIN.
"And while I don't think its right that the Iraqi people were suffereing, we're not doing anything to help the citizens of other countires who are living in oppression. Thats not why we went to Iraq. To say it is is downright naive."
We ARE helping other countries, but our focus right now is on the Middle East. I think that it is naive to think that every other country is going ignored. And isn't liberation a benefit enough? That wasn't the sole reason given, and you have a right to be bitter about THAT, but they way you're talking- it's like we shouldn't have gone in there and left it alone and let them suffer.
One thing that I can say about the Hitler/Saddam thing is that many people were oppressed both ways. And I think that liberation is a benefit. We can't be on top of every problem, but Iraq was painted as the biggest threat, not just by our intelligence, but the intelligence of other countries.
Even with all the flaws, you have to consider if that you're given intelligence by different countries, you'd kill yourself if you didn't take any action and something bad happened later.
Updated On: 7/28/04 at 07:44 PM
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