Bandstand or Miss Saigon — Page 5

ArtMan said: "No honey, ANYONE that dislikes someone based on their race is a racist. Being in a position of power has absolutely nothing to do with it. By starting your response immediately with " Sorry I injured your white fragility" defines your character. You have absolutely no idea what race i am. In the real world, you may be a nice, lovable person....but on this thread you come across like an ASS.



I don't dislike anyone for their race. I dislike them for their ignorance. You seem to be a white person who doesn't understand what it feels like to be in my shoes. If you were in my position, you would understand. I am not being an ass for saying that Dave cannot and will not tell me how to feel about Asian stereotypes in a show. This personally offends me. If an Asian person were saying this to me, I would respect their opinion because they have my experience.

Also, white fragility refers to the idea that white people get defensive when they are informed that they're opinion is an ignorant one.

Also, BC, you should not lose respect for me because I am standing up for my people because I am being told who I am by someone that does not know my story.

I have nothing against anyone for being white. I do have something against people who are ignorant.

No owes me anything, but no non-Asian can tell me that they know more about my culture than me. That's straight up racist and disrespectful to my people and I don't put up with that ****.

Updated On: 6/21/17 at 09:45 PM

poisonivy2 said: "As someone who is of Asian heritage just want to say ...

You do realize Asia is a continent and not a race/ethnicity right?

Yes of course, but I think that much of what I'm talking about applies to anyone of any Asian heritage. I happen to be Vietnamese and black.

What I'm saying is that they took an opera set in Japan and set it in Vietnam since apparently Asia is Asia in the eyes of Cameron Mackintosh. They then jammed it full of unlikable and distasteful stereotypes and cast a white leading man. This show certainly has a messy history and it's absurd to ignore this fact. The show is in better shape now with an actual Asian man in the lead role, but those negative stereotypes are still present. I'm just sick of Asian women being portrayed as strippers or basically human sex toys in almost everything. Even, South Pacific, which I adore, has instances of this. I don't know why Kim has to be a stripper. Yes, there were a lot of strippers in Vietnam at the time and that piece of history shouldn't be ignored, but I have a problem with it being such a huge part of Miss Saigon.

But Cio Cio San (madama Butterfly) is a geisha ... ... Similar to Kim in Saigon. So there is a similarity of these two works. Also in M Butterfky I think he is a dancer. I see where you are coming from. I'm Asian too. But if they adapt The Joy Luck Club into a musical? there you will find strong Asian characters.

"
Um, can't believe I'm jumping into this

"

I can't believe I'm jumping into this either. I am aware of the general issue about Asian stereotypes that GeorgeandDot is referring to but for this Asian-American woman, it's mostly an abstract issue rather than one that has a practical effect on my day-to-day life. What I mean is that the average Broadway audience member who lives in New York or other big city would be exposed to many Asian-American women who are doctors, engineers, lawyers, investment bankers, journalists, etc. I doubt that seeing one three hour show about a subservient woman who needs a strong American GI to rescue her will do much to erode their interactions with independent, successful Asian-American women day-in and day-out.

Also, I am not sure why the Kim-Chris pairing bothers GeorgeandDot so much. Such kinds of relationships are prevalent today in New York City, so it shouldn't be a shock that they were also present back in the 1970s when the sociopolitical and economic forces were far more complex. If anything, with the way they wrote the book, Chris' attraction to Kim arose from their shared torment and loss. In this day and age of "yellow fever", it seems to be far more substantive than the kind of attraction shown by many of the Caucasian guys that I date today.

When I watched the show, none of the previous opinion pieces I read about the racial insensitivities entered my mind. What gripped me was the lush orchestrations, the majestic sets, captivating choreography and magnetic performances from all the leads. If you were to force me to do an analysis from Asian perspective, I would reflect upon how far this Asian-American College Professor has come in one-and-half generations and how grateful I am for show to educate us about the exploitation of Asian women in those times; it helps to provide context for the the significance of our accomplishments.

In any case, back to the original question - I recommend Miss Saigon. Bandstand was a great show as well but I just think Miss Saigon (with Eva not the alternate on, ideally) was just an exquisite show. Clearly, it wasn't perfectly done in terms of social commentary. But relative to the standard I normally hold for a 3-hour musical, it was sublime.

GeorgeandDot said:

Also, POC can't be racist by definition. You have be in a position of power to be racist. A POC can be prejudiced, but they can't be racist.


I wish people would stop saying this. It's flat-out incorrect and doesn't help your argument or your cause. You can't just make up a new definition for the word "racist." POC do not have a "Get out of racism free" card.

GeorgeandDot said: " Being prejudiced is just as bad as being racist it's just that, by the proper definition of the word, POC can't be "racist." In this modern America, POC are certainly not in any sort of power and you have to be in a position of power to be racist.


I don't want to get into a semantic argument, but, no. It's a stipulative definition, not the proper definition. The original, dictionary definition is the "proper" definition, as it is with every other word. But someone somewhere down the line decided it referred to a system of power rather than a belief, and people have been regurgitating that "only white people can be racist" nonsense ever since. But it's simply not true. Not that it really matters, since it's just a word, and words only have the power we give them. But I don't see why the word needs to be co-opted for a new purpose when there are perfectly good phrases that describe what you're talking about.

GeorgeandDot, if these things offend you, you have to work on your personal issues first but blaming the show is not fair. Because 1. Sex workers were a huge part of that time and place, you would like to deny them too? Being confronted is a big part of the arts. And 2. Miss Saigon goes way beyond these stereotypes. Every audience member in their right mind will see Kim as a human character, because that's how the show is written. You can scream the words "racism" and "POC" and "stereotypes" on fora till the end of your days, but yes, thinking like that makes you the racist. Let us know when you decide to see people too. Because there will always be characters, jobs and settings in shows that you don't like. Putting your head in the sand is not the solution and won't make you a better person. History and suppression should not be forgotten but told in stories and arts should always be confronting.

Also, a specific show, about specific people in a specific time has nothing to do with you, your insecurities or how you would like to present yourself in this day and age, so could you please stop hanging your identity on that? Really, you need to work on that and see these a 2 separate things. That's important for a happy life. You can't just erase everything you don't like and expect the world to obey you. Then we end up with shows where everything is boring and perfect.

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 05:30 AM

GeorgeandDot said: " when someone tells you that something is offensive to them, you don't tell them that they have a personal problem."

But I really think you have a personal problem. When people were sending death threats to Disney when they were making the Princess and the frog because Tiana was supposed to be a maid in the first script (just like cinderella and Snowwhite) I said those people had a problem too. They clearly couldn't see the black character as a person, but focused on race. You do the same thing here.

The fact that you clearly like to deny/don't want to see strippers is one thing, but the fact you can't look past that and see them as people is another.

GeorgeandDot said: "Miss Saigon was born in total lack of respect for Vietnamese culture due to the casting of Jonathan Pryce as the engineer. He is a great performer, but his casting in Saigon has always caused me to kind of loathe Cameron Mackintosh and has tarnished my opinion of the show. Yes, my main problem with the show may be due to my personal feelings, but they are still valid issues. "

These are not valid issues. 1989 is not 2017. Society was different and issues have been solved. This revival show has nothing to do with that so it's very strange that you keep hammering on this. It has nothing to do with the show substantively.

GeorgeandDot said: " it's time that POC told their own stories, through their own eyes"

Fine. But has also nothing to do with this show.

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 06:07 AM

Robbie2 said: "BANDSTAND

DISCOUNT till 9/3/17

Code: BDMAIL525

Can we take this outside, please.

I decided last minute to get a ticket for one of the weekend matinees, and I couldn't believe the number of seats that were still available, under the Telecharge offer or just in general. At least half I would say. And yet almost all of these will be filled when the curtain rises in three days?

It's a mystery to me.

OlBlueEyes said: "Can we take this outside, please."



This ^

As I reiterated in my last post, start a new thread for this conversation/feud, and let's get OP thread back on track - please!

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 11:01 AM

agree with above posters to take the sideshow to another thread and honor and support the OP's original request.

these are two totally completely different shows

Miss Saigon's a stronger overall show and you should choose it if you liked phantom, wicked, Les mis and other "big show with bigs sets and big songs musical"

Bandstands a better call if you enjoyed beautiful, jersey boys, and other contemporary musicals and enjoy WW2 era big band music and fantastic choreography and dancing in your musicals

This feud has lasted almost as long as the war.

The only thing that everyone can agree on is that white guys are the worst, living grand lives by exploiting women and other races.

White guys are stereotyped too. What about all the men stuck doing the nasty jobs that no one wants to do: garbage men and road repair crews and stevedores and warehouse workers. Do it or starve. If these guys had any great power over the other gender or over other races they'd use it to find a better job.

Seriously, these guys often behave badly towards women and minorities because they're so angry that they wound up as losers, with the crap jobs, while they see so many that they think got ahead due to special privileges. These includes other white males, like those who are granted admission to the finest universities only because one of their parents attended the school and has been a good donor over the years.

Did you know that four times as many men than women commit suicide? That was surprising enough, but worse, white men have the highest rate compared to the rest of the races. If we're exploiting all non-whites and women, we're doing a lousy job of it.

Thought someone had to put in a word for us white guys.

Updated On: 6/22/17 at 10:17 PM