Best homely characters? — Page 2

adam.peterson44 said: "I guess i had Minnie Driver in my mind when i mentioned Carlotta. She is definitely not fat but is kind of homely. But maybe others have been cast in a more fat-and-pretty manner. One definitely gets the impression that the phantom is trying to push Carlotta out to make room for Christine due to his infatuation with the latter, since Carlotta is always, as far as i can remember, played by either someone with a great singing voice or (in the movie) dubbed by someone with a great singing voice. So the phantom is not pushing her out to make room for Christine due to Christine's singing, but due to his being in love with Christine.



I know any opinions on looks are personal; that said, I am not going to let a dismissal of Minnie Driver as being homely go unchallenged. Minnie Driver has played homely -- so has Jessica Chasten, to low acclaim -- that is not the same as being homely. fIMO she can be extremely attractive. It sorta depends on the role, the intention, the clothes, the make-up and the raw material.

In the Phantom movie, she was borderline -- admittedly a little unconventionally -- gorgeous...they focused on DIVA in bold face capitals to define her character, not homely, ugly, no body fat, etc. Great make-up, wig, emphasis on cleavage and tiny waist; again, the raw material was there all the time.

Jarethan, I certainly did not "dismiss" (as you put it) Minnie Driver in referring to her character in the phantom movie as homely. I don't actually judge people's value by their appearance, and describing someone's appearance as conventionally attractive or not to me is not a dismissal/approval but rather no different from saying that someone is 5'10" high or has brown hair - there is no value or judgment attached to such a description in my opinion. My point was simply that i think the story of Phantom of the Opera generally implies (to me, anyway) that the phantom finds Christine more attractive than Carlotta, because Carlotta's singing has always been either as good as or better than Christine's in any production that i have seen, so the appearance thing seems to be what motivates him, and hence i think the character has to be cast as being considered somewhat less conventionally-attractive than Christine in order for the story to work. One couldn't really cast it so that both characters are equally physically attractive with Christine being a better singer because of all the specific fuss made in the story script and lyrics about how great a singer Carlotta is. In no way do i dismiss actors who play such characters or people who are not conventionally attractive in real life as having any less value than people widely considered to be attractive.

adam.peterson44 said: "Jarethan, I certainly did not "dismiss" (as you put it) Minnie Driver in referring to her character in the phantom movie as homely. I don't actually judge people's value by their appearance, and describing someone's appearance as conventionally attractive or not to me is not a dismissal/approval but rather no different from saying that someone is 5'10" high or has brown hair - there is no value or judgment attached to such a description in my opinion. My point was simply that i think the story of Phantom of the Opera generally implies (to me, anyway) that the phantom finds Christine more attractive than Carlotta, because Carlotta's singing has always been either as good as or better than Christine's in any production that i have seen, so the appearance thing seems to be what motivates him, and hence i think the character has to be cast as being considered somewhat less conventionally-attractive than Christine in order for the story to work. One couldn't really cast it so that both characters are equally physically attractive with Christine being a better singer because of all the specific fuss made in the story script and lyrics about how great a singer Carlotta is. In no way do i dismiss actors who play such characters or people who are not conventionally attractive in real life as having any less value than people widely considered to be attractive.



I think your points are valid. I also think the Phantom could easily hate Carlotta for several reasons that have nothing to do with looks:

-- Audiences may like prima donnas. That doesn't mean he has to. Given his passion, he would be as interested in the performance as the singing. There are all kinds of stories about past opera singers who were atrocious actors, but with gorgeous voices; and they were stars because of the voice. This could easily have been the case with Carlotta. He was thinking about the future of opera and not the past.

-- She is an old-time, world class DIVA; and, as a DIVA, she ultimately cares about no-one but herself. The Phantom has been abused by people his whole life. Overseeing the comings and goings-ons back stage all day every day, wouldn't he naturally hate someone like Carlotta, who figuratively spits on people all the time?

-- Christine is still pure and innocent.

adam.peterson44 said: "Jarethan, you may be right - perhaps Phantom resents Carlotta for being a Diva. But i don't think she is necessarily introduced as one at first - she sings the aria that the new managers request her to sing for them personally, she is worried and scared when the scenery falls near her and nearly hits her, and her outburst about the managers letting things like that happen seems like a non-diva concerned about being injured could have made it out of frustration, just as easily as a diva might make it out of entitlement. Because really, everyone is actually entitled not to be injured at work and the phantom keeps trying to injure her (it is not really specified why explicitly). Then later, having someone constantly trying to replace you while insulting and threatening you (the phantom's various notes) probably also brings out jealousy/diva-ness that might not have already been there. But it may have already been there, too - the story doesn't necessarily go back far enough for us to decide whether she was already like that, or whether that was a reaction to the phantom persecuting her, so i think your interpretation is certainly one valid possibility that is consistent with everything shown on stage, as is the Christine-infatuation hypothesis. Perhaps there are others as well.

I have always assumed the DIVA behavior (as a performer and as a person) was the reason for the animosity, but there are clearly other options.

Both Maggie Hobson and Will Mossop in Hobson's Choice

Of course there are other characters from Follies who could be described as homely, but it mostly depends on the production, since besides a few one liners and maybe a solo pastiche song, there's not a lot to describe their looks. I know Hattie, Stella, and Emily are pretty much always plainer than Phyllis or Carlotta.

Updated On: 8/5/17 at 08:31 PM

Mary in Merrily We Roll Along is supposed to be somewhat homely right? Actually Mary and Charley are both supposed to be the homelier, less glamorous friends of Franklin Shephard Inc. and his trophy wives Gussie and Beth.

I don't think homely means unattractive. For me it means plain and a bit odd-looking, but not ugly. Like Ben Platt is homely. He's not ugly but he's sort of plain, short, and his face is sort of odd-looking. Another example of a homely actor is Patti Lupone. She's not ugly but her features are a bit odd and if she were just walking down the street you'd think of her as a plain little lady.

Of course some actors with the help of makeup and body language can look homely when they are anything but. Donna Murphy in Passion is a great example -- Donna is very beautiful IRL but was able to suggest a homeliness when she played Fosca.

Updated On: 8/5/17 at 07:28 AM

poisonivy2 said: "I don't think homely means unattractive. For me it means plain and a bit odd-looking, but not ugly.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/homely

plain or unattractive in appearance

Thank you @The Distinctive Baritone. I've been feeling the same way.