Broadway Tenor Baritone Overlap

Ramin's is such a wonderful tenor voice - can only image how beautiful The Proposal will sound in Titanic - but I do know (based on his own words in his podcast The Hang) that he was actively worked to develop his lower notes and you can hear a difference now in the more recent Phantom compared to the 25th.

bwaylvsong1 said: "As a natural baritone, I have had to spend years training my upper register in order to have any sort of musical theatre career. In my personal experience, most roles do not fall squarely into baritone or tenor territory, and most men with significant vocal training can sing most roles (with obvious exceptions). As you mentioned, the role of Evan Hansen for example has a very large range that someone who identifies solely as a tenor or a baritone would not be able to sing effectively."

You're absolutely correct that it's rare roles fall squarely into tenor or baritone land, and even rarer that they're written for true basses.
What shows the biggest difference between theatre and opera is looking at the two most operatic mainstream musicals: Les Mis and Phantom (I guess some Sondheim shows are more operatic but Sondheim characters' ranges are a lot closer to what you'd expect from actual operatic roles)
The Phantom is a baritone, kind of. I mean, looking at just the range of G#2 to G#4, that's a baritone role. That's the same range as Harold Hill. But then you remember that during the title song he uses F4's and G4's over and over and over-- only particularly demanding dramatic bass-baritone and softer lyric tenor roles in opera would use such notes so often, and certainly you'd never see a song in an opera where you have to use repeated G#2's in every single verse and use both a soft and a huge G#4 and hold many fourth octave notes for all of eternity
And then Valjean is a tenor, kind of. He has a lot of high notes, sure, but when you actually examine the material, he has his first A#, an optional high D, the B4 at the end of Who Am I, and Bring Him Home. And, while Bring Him Home is very high, it's actually not so high that it's impossible for a baritone, it's equally challenging for both baritones and tenors because of how soft and tender it is and it's definitely written for a tenor but totally doable for a strong lyric baritone. Obviously, he has a few other high notes, like the handful in Confrontation and the G4's in One Day More, but several lyric baritones have played the role, with one of my favorite examples being Ben Platt
A lot of people consider Ben Platt to be a tenor, and I feel like he'd probably be a tenor if he'd gone down an operatic path, but, as a wide vocal range individual, I can tell you I'd be a baritone if I were in pop music. To me, Ben Platt is a baritone with a high belt and great falsetto. We've heard him sing a legit B4 in the recording of him in Les Mis, but we also know from Dear Evan Hansen that he can't really sustain using those notes all the time and also he's very very comfortable at the bottom of the bass clef. I have to seriously finess the bottom of For Forever, he has to seriously finess the top.
I enjoy analyzing things like this and I'm glad people aren't responding with hostility.
In opera, Dramatic Tenors and Lyric Baritones swapped roles a little, but in musical theatre it's not really like that.
Also, do you know any basses? They have it real bad in theatre. I mean, are there even bass lead roles in theatre? There's bass-baritone roles, but since only like 1% of guys are true basses, there's hardly anything written for them

Tone plays a big part of this also. Whether a bari or a tenor or a bari-tenor. Baritones tend to have, often times, more warmth and a soothing tone BUT often lack that certain hair raising "edge" sound that really gets people going in modern musicals. I know that is a generalization but that has been my experience. John Raite, Alfred Drake, Richard Kiley and Robert Goulet (my god Robert Goulet!) were those who had ravishing baritones during their time..............George Hearn and John Cullum also later on. These men didn't need the high high notes to thrill people with their voices. They were established baritones with a certain tone. Later on, let's say with Evita, Mandy Patinkin, he brings us a raw, equally thrilling just "go for it" voice in songs like A New Argentina. And later in Secret Garden I'll add. It was a different kind of voice (in my opinion). I thought he was a tenor but other's say he is a "high" baritone. I dunno, we can ask him. The point is he brought something new to the table with his vocals. I think backing up a bit, one could say Ben Vereen also did that with his Judas and Leading Player; not wholly legit, with an edge that was exciting. Then you have the Colm Wilkinsons........remember when HE landed on Broadway with his Irish tenor. People were raving. These were unique voices.....Patinkin, Vereen and Wilkinson. Once these actors left the roles they originated, as time went on those actors who played Valjean ranged from low baritones who by their own admission found a way to soar such as the great Randal Keith to I would say TOOOO legit operatic tenors.....in the sense that there was no edge, they sounded like when opera singers sing POP or something......Alfie Boe comes to mind. For Valjeans you might have in the legit legit sense, an actor such as Donn Cook or Craig Schulman while in the more "raw" sound (which I prefer when seeing a Valjean) a Rob Evan for example. They have the high notes and they have the low notes-one would have to ask them what they categorize themselves as. But it was the TONE that stood out. Look at the Phantoms: they are all over the map, with most people I talk to liking a Phantom with a "dark" menacing tone these days. The late great Kevin Grey had a reedy high tenor that while he acted the hell out of the part lacked a certain something to make him menacing (Peter Jöback, the same). The original Phantom, Michael Crawford, played him as a wounded soul and his unique voice lent itself to being able to pull it off. Later phantoms, such as the late great Steve Barton for example had a much deeper voice and added a certain menace that was thrilling in it's own way (to see an example of how Steve Barton used his voice to its full potential check out vids of him from Tanz der Vampire-thrilling). However, and this gets back to my tone comment that started this, there are those actors who have tenor voices and have been cast as Valjean but their TONE are not so warm, or they sound too young to be convincing in the part. I am a bit shocked that Peter Jöback is taking over as Valjean in London for a spell-his voice is SO wrong for that role, as was, don't kill me, Hugh Jackman's. The TONE was not there-his Bring Him Home was him just shouting full voice. I love the guy, but he was wrong for it. Finding that vocal sweet spot is not so easy for casting directors who take their cues from the musical supervisors and composers of the shows-but it is possible when a certain actor with a certain voice is found to make the role their own in a new exciting way. Davis Gaines as the Phantom, with his unique baritone is an example of when I mean. And Norbert Leo Butz with his gorgeous voice. Again, it's the tone that is just so good.

John Adams: "Fach, like sexuality (or most everything in life, really), falls on a spectrum where overlaps occur. Also, some singers, male or female, possess the talent, training, and physical gift to be "bi-fachual" [jk]. In other words, they can utilize their training, and manipulate their physical vocal mechanisms to change the tone color of their voice so they can sound more tenor-like vs baritone, or vice-versa."

You're pretty much right on that, yes. My voice coach constantly tells me "don't worry about it, you'll just be able to do both!" And, of course, she's right. But I will say, you aren't entirely right about tone. For operatically trained individuals, yes you are correct. A lyric baritone is rarely lighter than a dramatic tenor. Buuuuuuuuuut that does not apply to contemporary singers. Tell me how it's possible that, despite 90% of male voices being baritone by nature, it seems like there are more tenors than baritones in the theatre? Well obviously it's because of the culture around belting. My main thing is that Ben Platt, much like John Legend who is very famously a baritone and not a tenor, employs a belt basically everywhere above a G4. He has B's, and even high C's sometimes, but a tenor, to me at least, is a voice that has the ability to support a high C within its tessitura every day. It is a lot about tone and timbre, but it is more about tessitura, and Ben Platt's is really far lower than a tenor. I think that, were he to train operatically, he may well be a tenor, but with the way he sings now I do not see him at all as a tenor. I mean really listen to him in live performances and the high A's he uses in Words Fail and For Forever. He is finessing the notes, they are not tenor high A's. A true tenor like, say, Jack Eric Williams can effortlessly sustain notes that high and even higher eight shows a week like it's nothing. I mean, not effortlessly, but just in a way that the audience doesn't see a visible effort. And I understand that it's sometimes for effect, but Ben Platt gets much lighter and lacks the ringing sound of a tenor in his highest full voice notes even in instances of using said notes. Now, of course, this is largely subjective seeing as fachs and voice classification in non classical music are very easy to debate due to just not being standardized, but I really don't think Ben Platt is a tenor. That being said, Placido Domingo was "bi-fachual", as were some very successful heldentenors, so I don't think that you're completely wrong, nor do I doubt Ben Platt could be one such individual, but I just do not personally think he is at all a tenor.