Can Off-Broadway Be Fixed?

[Judas]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 10:25pm

Hey All! I know I'm new to the site, but I've been pondering the question: Can Off-Broadway Be Fixed? The problem is that nothing can sustain a life off-Broadway. Sure, many shows are running, but they're not really turning a profit. Unless they're part of a subscription house, they can't find an audience, and therefore close short. How can that be changed? Is it location? Is it budget? Is it ticket prices? Is it the fact that tourists don't want to journey out beyond Times Square?

[ljay889]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 10:27pm

Off-Broadway isn't "beyond" Times Square. While I am sure a lot of the theaters are. An off-Broadway theatre is classified by it's amount of seats. 499 or less.

[Judas]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 10:32pm

Oh, no. I totally understand that. I actually found it silly that 2nd Stages is right across the street from "Broadway." But, I'm talking about commercial off-Broadway. 37 Arts is closing, correct? I've read on this board that it's mostly due to the fact that it's so far off the beaten path. Even if a gorgeous production opened there, no one wants to go that far to see a show. I mean, look at "In The Heights." Many said it would have a hard time on Broadway because it could barely hold a full house off-Broadway, but now it's selling out nightly. The Snapple Theatre Center is right in Times Square too, correct? But I barley ever hear about a show opening there. Also, when I was at Second Stages, there was a playhouse across the street, but I can't remember the name of it. I've never heard of it before. The quality of shows off-Broadway is obviously stellar, but yet, the tourists don't want to see them?

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 10:40pm

Tourists aren't coming to NYC to see a show at the Theater Building (that's the one across from 2nd Stage). They're not coming to see a show at 2nd Stage, either. They're going to see Spamalot or The Little Mermaid, or something with name recognition to impress the folks back home.

[Yero my Hero]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 10:51pm

The Snapple Theatre Center is right in Times Square too, correct? But I barley ever hear about a show opening there.

That's because the Snapple Theatre Center has been home to two long-running shows for a while. That's like saying the Majestic must be cursed because there is never news of a show opening there.

Also, ITH didn't sell very well on Broadway until it won the Tony.

[etoile]

Posted: 7/31/08 at 11:08pm

I never realized Off Broadway was broken and needed fixed. Why do things need to change?

I also think it's foolish for Yankee to make comments generalizing tourist.

[Mildred Plotka]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 12:10am

Are you suggesting we neuter off-Broadway? Are you Bob Barker?

[jordangirl]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 7:21am

37 Arts is down a kind of sketchy street, but it's closing because it's a horrendous space more than it is because of the area.

Personally I never thought off-Broadway was technically intended for long-term runs (The Fantastiks excluded) but limited runs of more experimental-type pieces. At least that's bee my exposure to it. Most of the companies such as MCC, 2econd Stage, etc. only plan for things to be limited runs ~ NOT open-ended.

Incidentally, I just bought a preview subscription for MCC because their shows look great. :)

Updated On: 8/1/08 at 07:21 AM

[songanddanceman2]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 8:40am

Whenever i come over i always go to see a couple of Off Broadway shows

[CapnHook]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 9:03am

THE FANTASTIKS, I LOVE YOU YOU'RE PERFECT NOW CHANGE, and FORBIDDEN BROADWAY all seem to have had great commercial success off-Broadway. Same with STOMP, NAKED BOYS SINGING, ALTAR BOYZ, and BLUE MAN GROUP.

And Yankee's generalisation of a "tourist" is pretty spot on. Off-Broadway shows, generally speaking, don't market their shows to bring in tourists out-of-state (like most Broadway shows do). Instead they wait until the tourists have come already to see PHANTOM and then while they are in the TKTS line they pass out the flyers and sell some more tickets.

I always hate that I assumed off-Broadway was the cliche "not-as-good theatre/farther away/cheaper/lesser quality show." I missed out on a LOT! But that is partly because, collectively, the off-Broadway market never reached itself out to me. I was uninformed and there was no one to make it easy for me and inform me of what I was missing and to break the cliches mentioned earlier. As producers of off-Broadway shows, they need to find ways to make it more easy.

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 9:24am

I think what Judas is talking about is the fact that really no one can make a profit off-broadway anymore. Even the long-running, tourist-friendly ALTAR BOYZ runs on a profit-one-week, loss-the-next basis. Commercial off-broadway is pretty much dead...the days of long-runners like EL GRANDE DE COCA COLA, THE THREEPENNY OPERA, ZOO STORY and so on are long gone.

Long time ago, the sorely-missed Margo Channing posted a long thread about how a very, very small percentage of off-broadway shows make a profit making it harder and harder for things to get produced. Couple that with the fact that spaces are being bought out and demolished at a ridiculous rate...its a sad scene. Can it be fixed? It's kind of looking like a big "no".

[TooDarnHot]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 12:35pm

it's true.

none of the "bigger" names (Goodman, Stone, Etc.) want to invest money in Off-Broadway right now. they are not turning a profit.

I think it has changed in the last few years. just not sure why...

[Judas]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 12:51pm

Thanks Borstalboy! I think some of my concerns/questions got muddled in the typing. I wasn't aware that Snapple Center had long-running shows in it. My question is what is accounting for the demise of Off-Broadway? It seems like most shows can't just live off-Broadway anymore, they have to "make it Broadway" to become a success. Should they build more smaller theatre in and around Broadway to house the experimental pieces, but still give them a nice location?

[TooDarnHot]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 12:54pm

"My question is what is accounting for the demise of Off-Broadway?"

the economy.... courtesy of GEORGE BUSH

[Borstalboy]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 1:05pm

"Should they build more smaller theatre in and around Broadway to house the experimental pieces, but still give them a nice location?"

This still wouldn't solve the problem of just a general consumer apathy towards off-broadway...and its not just tourists. When I first visited NY, two off-broadway shows were being highly touted: DOG SEES GOD and RED LIGHT WINTER...eye-catching posters were everywhere in the subways, people knew about it, DOG SEES GOD even had a few minor celebrities in the cast and RED LIGHT WINTER got mostly raves from the critics. They both lost their investments. I think they're may be a possible future for such things if there were corporate sponsorship of off-broadway theaters, like the Signature's $25 a show program, but the corporatization of non-profits is resulting in a lot of middle-brow mediocrity in regional theaters and unchallenging theare isn't and shouldn't be what off-broadway is all about.

In short: It's a big-ass mess.

[Judas]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 1:36pm

I agree. I mean, things like Speech and Debate - which I didn't see, but I loved the idea of it - need a place to perform. They're new experimental pieces (where the audience sits in school desks) that would never work on Broadway. Certain types of theater will just never work on Broadway, and that's understandable. It's a larger gamble and you want to appeal to people, but there needs to be an outlet for absurdism and whatnot.

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 6:44pm

I did not know it was broken.

[Judas]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 9:49pm

Well let me shed some light on it for you!

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 10:06pm

Please do

[Elphabatize]

Posted: 8/1/08 at 10:23pm

I didn't realize that off-Broadway was broken.

- The Fantasticks's original production ran off-Broadway for 17,162 performances, becoming the world's longest-running musical, for 42 years
- Altar Boyz opened off-Broadway on March 1, 2005 and as far as I know is still going strong
- Stomp opened off-Broadway on February 27, 1994 and as far as I know is still going strong
- Blue Man Group opened off-Broadway on November 17, 1991 and as far as I know is still going strong

PS: I'm a "tourist" (ie. I do not live in NYC) but I love off-Broadway stuff! I always check out what's new off-Broadway whenever I'm in NYC. Updated On: 8/1/08 at 10:23 PM

[Patash]

Posted: 8/2/08 at 8:55am

It's true. It's true. Off Broadway just CAN'T sustain a show for a decent or profitable run.
Why they even had to close I LOVE YOU, YOU'RE PERFECT after only about 12 years! I guess nobody could find it?

Hogwash.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/2/08 at 9:23am

I think regional theatre is the new Off-Broadway.

And yes the "old" Off Broadway is dead. I'm surprised some of you old-timers don't see that! You've been around NYC long enough to know the difference.

It's not what it used to be.

There's no chance of a Godspell, Little Shop of Horrors or Fantastiks being perfectly content to run Off Broadway and never transfer. They either move to Broadway or close now. Hell, there's not even a Ruthless.

Show's like Xanadu and TOS would have enjoyed long runs Off Broadway 20 years ago. Now, they're opening on the Great White Way.

[Noel&Cole]

Posted: 8/2/08 at 10:45am

Off-Broadway is in big trouble. It has been for a long time. You can't use the Fantastiks, I Love You, You're Perfect...., or Stomp as examples. They are from many years ago and have already established their success. I think the problem is there will never be Off-Broadway runs like those again. Off-Broadway used to be a destination for certain kinds of shows. No it is just a testing ground because nothing can afford to stay off-Broadway. Its the union rates, its the advertising and it;s the ticket prices.

Some people on this board have pointed it out already. 10 years ago, Xanadu, Avenue Q, TOS, Grey Gardens, and even Spring Awakening all would have stayed off-Broadway and happily so for long successful runs. Now they have to transfer or close. It is a sad state of affairs. Even Altar Boys which is the most recent Off-Broadway "hit" took 3 years to just recoup. That is quite a long time and not a good sign if 3 years to recoup is your best case senario nowadays.

[Patash]

Posted: 8/2/08 at 11:17am

Best 12bars, your post really confuses me. You say there are no off Broadway shows that can run without transferring or closing. Other posters here have already named a lot of them. Fantasticks (one of your examples) is back off Broadway running again and again. There is I Love You. . ., Altar Boyz, Stomp, Blue Man Group, Forbidden Broadway, Perfect Crime, Naked Boys Singing, and others! You mention a couple shows that moved from off Broadway to Broadway. Geez. Hasn't that always been the case? Man of La Mancha could have run forever off Broadway, but moved. What about Godspell? Same thing. Neither of those were exactly in the last year or two! Some of us "old timers" really DON'T see that much difference, although admittedly there are a lot more subscription off Broadway theatres these days.

Forgive me if your entire post was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Was it? Sometimes attempts at "sarcasm" escape me and I realize your entire post could have been meant as that.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 8/2/08 at 1:10pm

Shows that survive off-Broadway tend to have some sort of a gimmick or concept. Stomp and Blue Man group are both franchised "event shows" that have already established audience recognition. Perfect Crime has the novelty of being a murder mystery, and has very low operating costs. Naked Boys Singing and Altar Boyz are both very concept oriented, and neither can really be considered traditional book musicals. It is currently very difficult for a conventional musical or play to turn a profit off-Broadway.