"Caroline"- Sat Nite 8/7 (W/WARNING!)

[Testing1232]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:02am

Just got back from our 7th visit, and the show gets better and better !!! Only good thing that comes out of the closing is saving Ms. Pinkins voice. I feel for her on some of the numbers where she struggles to belt !! She is amazing giving 8 performances a week !! She sounded strained, but still did an amazing "Lots Wife". Larry Keith was out as Mr. Stopnick... John Jellison in. Ramona Keller out as part of the radio (maybe in "Brooklyn" rehearsals?)

Theater was packed, and the crowd was really into it. A lot more laughter than we have heard at any show so far. Usually, you get a few giggles and chuckles here and there, but tonight there were flat out laughs !!

Huge standing ovation at the end. Seemed like people did not want to leave.

We are really going to miss this show !!!

Okay, so now the warning:

If you do not plan on thinking at all when you go to a show, then dont go see "Caroline or Change". Head for "Bombay Dreams",
"Mamma Mia", or "Beauty and the Beast"...

7:45 waiting for the show to start... Three people in their 30's sit down in front of us. Two of them get up to go get a drink, leaving one of the women. She turns around, and seeing my "Caroline or Change" shirt, she says "oh, so I see you both have the shirts" (my wife was wearing a white blouse) "have you seen this before?" I reply "yes, several times".. so, then with a scrunched up nose like she was smelling rotten fruit, she says "so, like... what is this like, about?". I explain a bit, but after the utter look of confusion on her face, just end with.... "you'll see".. So, needless to say.. 15 minutes in, the three of them start moving around and talking about their displeasure. We hear the obligatory "i didnt know they sang all of the words"... "What is the "change" about?".. and "its boring"..

Not to mention that fact that they kept putting their heads on eachothers shoulders, so we really had a hard time seeing.

At intermission, we decided to move back and sit in the last orchestra row where there were two empty seats. Sitting in front of us is a man with his wife and daughter. Would say mid to late 50's. He turns around, and sees my shirt. Asks if we have seen the show before. I reply that I have, and he then says "so, can you explain it to me?" "I really dont understand it... what is the change coming from?"

Middle aged, and you cant understand it at all !!!???

Thank god there are shows out there that are a lot less challenging !!! Okay, going to bed now without the light on. I am bothering the night.

[MusicMan]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:08am

Sounds to me like your neighbors were the smartest and most honest ones of the bunch. Updated On: 8/8/04 at 12:08 AM

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:10am

Never underestimate the stupidity of people, even theatregoers.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:21am

MusicMan,

thanks for your valuable input... If I am not mistaken, this is around your, what, 55th post making it known that you did not like "Caroline"? That important for you to get the point across, huh?

Maybe you were the one sitting in front of us?

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:24am

testing, i thought you went to bed...

:)
anyway, thanks for the update, i am going to see it again on thursday. WHeeeee i cant wait. number 4, baby!
-d.b.j-

[Testing1232]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:34am

I was trying to sleep... but seriously, I keep hearing Chuck Cooper singing "The President...is dead" !!!!! :))

Its keeping me up !!! Maybe I can get Rose to tuck me in....
or make me cabbage...

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:37am

sweet, stuffed cabbage? maybe even...cooked with brisket? is it nutritious? you know, iron...vegetables.....
-d.b.j-

[Testing1232]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:45am

children should be strong...AND BIG !!!! Big, strong children..

I really have to stop !! LOL

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 12:46am

nice catch!
--0d.b.j0-

[BWayBoy88]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 2:04am

Some people are just really stupid when you have to think when you see a show. I prefer shows like this where you have to think about it, as opposed to fluff like Bombay Dreams where everything is just about the look of the show. I like shows with a deeper meaning.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 2:55am

This is why the show is closing. Too many people think enough at work. Updated On: 8/9/04 at 02:55 AM

[ChiChi]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 5:26am

When I went to the show, a young couple was sitting in front of me. The guy was quite tall, so at intermission I asked if they wouldn't mind switching seats. She said "You can have our seats." Being the nosy person I am, I asked "Are you leaving and why?" Obviously upset at my impertinance, she said they had better things to do, that they hated the show "Even though we're black we don't like everything that's black." I didn't feel like I had made an implication toward this, but maybe I said something wrong.

[theaterfan194]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 7:59pm

do you know where i could find caroline or change lyrics online???? i loved the show and i wanna see the lyrics thx...

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 10:25pm

this has been discussed in another thread....
no one has posted of anywhere they know of.
-d.b.j-

[thirdrowcenter]

Posted: 8/8/04 at 11:31pm

I saw COC at the Public Theater. The entire audience was thrilled.

[BlueWizard]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 1:01am

For those who have seen it both at on Broadway and at the Public Theater, can they comment on which space was better for the show? I would think the intimacy of the Public Theater (as well as perhaps a more open-minded audience) would have made it a more satisfying experience. How did the musical play in the two different venues?

Updated On: 8/9/04 at 01:01 AM

[nystateomind04]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 1:02am

"This is why the show is closing. People think enough at work."

yes, apparently you used up all your intelligent comments at the office today.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 2:21am

The show started and workshopped at The Public for about three or four years (Kushner had a reading of the "libretto" there about 4 years ago -- at the time it was a play more or less and the consensus of those attending the reading was that it might be more effective with music). After a failed attempt to turn it into an opera (with, I believe Bobby McFerrin composing), Kushner and Wolfe brought Tesori on board and began developing it as a musical. Several workshops at the Public later, it developed into the musical that is now at the O'Neill.

This is a typical development process of new plays and musicals at the city's major not-for-profits (The Public has moved many shows over the years to Broadway, from "A Chorus Line" to "Bring In Da Noise" to "Take Me Out" to "Elaine Stritch" which moved from their stages at the Public to Broadway; "Avenue Q" developed similarly at the Vineyard; "Contact" and "The Frogs" went through this process a Lincoln Center). If when they are finally ready to be shown to the public and get booked in one of these theatres' seasons and if they get the proper positive response, then the next step is to assemble commercial producers to move the show to the commercial realm -- usually a Broadway theatre (though not-for-profit off-Broadway to "for-profit" off-Broadway transfers still happen occasionally; LCT has the advantage that the Beaumont is a Broadway-eligible house).

Personally, I liked CAROLINE better on Broadway in the larger space (though the Newman stage at the Public is actually almost the exact same size as the O'Neill stage, the expanse of the O'Neill felt less claustrophobic and allowed the story breathe better -- other shows were definitely better downtown). The audience seemed to greet it warmly in both places on the various nights I've seen it (going back to the third preview at the Public).

Updated On: 8/9/04 at 02:21 AM

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 2:34am

A lot of you guys like to think about how much you love these deep shows that "make you think" and feel better about yourselves like it means you're smarter and more elite than someone who is not entertained by it. I did not enjoy the show. I'm not a Tony Kushner fan either. That doesn't mean I didn't understand it or appreciate it. Some of you are very stuck up and need to stop dimissing the "MAMMA MIA!" shows as crap and junk. On a certain day, you would like those shows too for what they're trying to do. By the way, Margo, you're very smart and we appreciate you but sometimes you seem to treat the "MAMMA MIA!" shows as scum like you would a homeless person on the street. Are the people who like CAROLINE OR CHANGE really smarter or better than the poeple who prefer MAMMA MIA!?

[etoile]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 2:55am

Thank you Bronx for that sweeping generalization. So are saying those that enjoy and appriecate something like CAROLINE would be precluded from enjoying MAMMA MIA and would then out of hand dismiss it?

And where, unless I've missed it in another thread, has Margo has treated ANY show as if it were scum? And how deplorable of you to assume Margo's treatment towards the homeless.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:50am

First of all, I would never and have never treated a homeless person like "scum" -- your word, and a truly ugly one it is. Take care with the aspersions you cast. It strikes me that if that word is part of your regular vocabulary (and I do say IF) -- whether for homeless people or anyone else -- it's no wonder that you didn't respond to the healing, compassionate message of CAROLINE, OR CHANGE, and that you clearly need far more substantial help and guidance than any musical or work of theatre could provide for you.

Now, as for your statement regarding MAMMA MIA -- that show has made its creators millions for lazy, contemptible, shallow and cynical artistry -- as if it were put together in a 48 hour drunken weekend with Gina Lollobrigida's "Buona Sera, Mrs Campbell" (the Grade-C movie which was the basis of its threadbare plot) on the vcr and ABBA GOLD on repeat on the CD player. The producers spent $10 million and they didn't even TRY for it to make any sense. They had enough money that they could have easily fashioned a plot and a physical production that was light, fun, but still smart, professional and coherent. Instead, this whole show is a case of "the dog ate my homework" -- a haphazardly-assembled mishmash, with a pathetic excuse for a book, shamefully inept direction and choreography, and a physical production that looks like something that was put together from odds and ends they found in the alley behind the theatre.

They knew that the worldwide popularity of ABBA (and I have no beef with the songs themselves and think that they're very well-crafted and lots of fun) would ensure a hit show, so they didn't bother or care to try to do better. They didn't give a crap about their audience and cynically tossed any old thing up on the stage with cardboard characters and cartoon situations knowing that billing the show as "ABBA's greatest hits" would be enough to sell it to the masses.

In contrast, the creators of CAROLINE spent several years constructing a work that subtley and cannily speaks to the issues of poverty and disenfranchisement, race, religion, class, gender, socioeconomic and political upheaval, Vietnam, Civil Rights, communism, familial dysfunction and so many other issues, filtered through a vast musical prism of blues, pop, doo-wop, R&B, klezmer, classical, jazz, and gospel.

That the audiences who come to town on vacation chose an ABBA karaoke show over this complex and multidimensional story of a frustrated black maid in a basement in 1963 Louisiana is hardly surprising and doesn't mark one audience as "smarter or better" than another.

It does, however, mark the creators of "Caroline" as having far more respect for its audience than the charlatans who put together MAMMA MIA, in that they at least cared enough to create an original score and original story and to construct a work that didn't automatically assume that its audience was a bunch of easily-amused, insubstantial and undemanding folks who don't want to be challenged or intelligently-engaged or made to feel anything: real, emotional or of any consequence.

Theatre at its best engages both the head and the heart: "Caroline," when fully grasped, does both; "Mamma Mia" at its dismal best does neither, and doesn't even attempt to. It's entertainment "constructed by committee": cynical, dispassionate, lowest-common-denominator, corporate-assembled, soulless spectacle, BS masquerading as fulfilling entertainment and unworthy of a $100 price tag.

Honestly, I've seen better and more professionally assembled revues at the Duplex and Roses Turn and CB's Gallery done by friends whom I know for a fact had NO money and little time, BUT cared enough about their audience to work their asses off to write real segues that made sense song-to-song, with clever and witty patter in between and inventive choreography and staging throughout. MAMMA MIA on the other hand is an absolute abomination to the entire world of professional theatre and to those artists on Broadway, off-Broadway, off-off-Broadway,in regional houses, in cabarets, comedy clubs, nightclubs, in small and big performance venues around the country who care enough to work hard, have real talent and true creative spirits and try to offer the best possible entertainment to their audiences.

Yes, I understand why it's a big hit and why so many people enjoy it. But, is it even 30% as good as it could or SHOULD be? - not by a VERY long shot.

Updated On: 8/9/04 at 04:50 AM

[Chip1012]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 6:39am

Wow. Margo that was amazing.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 7:36am

why does that bbe post sound so familiar? oh yeah, it sounds just like a musicman post... i'm beginning to feel more and more like the people who don't "get" this amazing show are just feeling left out and thereby calling those who DO get it, names such as "elitist", "smarter", etc... Updated On: 8/9/04 at 07:36 AM

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 9:01am

Yeah, that was her fanciest worded post ever. You can thank me for that.

Thanks for the good MAMMA MIA! analysis, but I was refering to all those shows in general(BOMBAY, MOVIN' OUT, CATS.)

I hear all these words like art, complex, and thought-provoking when refering to these type of shows like CAROLINE and I can just picture all of you having tea and crumpets in corsets and evening gowns impressed with yourselves.

Mayby you guys are better than me simply because I do not like CAORLINE even though I still understand it at the same level as you.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 9:09am

"...all these words like art, complex, and thought-provoking when refering to these type of shows like CAROLINE..."

and there's something wrong with that?

i enjoyed Mamma Mia, too, for what it was, and what it was, for me, was a glorified ABBA concert...

the Mamma Mia's and the Good Vibrations and such are not going anywhere for a long time... so you needn't worry... but there are those who want something more for a theater experience... you needn't feel threatened by it... Updated On: 8/9/04 at 09:09 AM