"Caroline"- Sat Nite 8/7 (W/WARNING!)- Page 2

[KMF_NYC]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 9:29am

Is it possible that there can be someone who enjoys both types of shows? I guess so, because I did...Mamma Mia was a night of fluff and somethimes that's OK -- I wouldn't bash it or people who enjoyed it (ot that type of show).

Caroline was spectacular and a night(s) of theater I will never forget. It is complex, thought provoking and intelligent. Everyone in the cast gave their heart and soul in portraying their characters and their journeys...but I can see how some people don't get it --

I think there is plenty of room for both types of shows, however it is unfortunate that the intelligent shows don't last as long as they should.

Updated On: 8/9/04 at 09:29 AM

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 9:37am

and that's exactly my point... the fact that i think Caroline, Or Change is an amazing show, only puts me in a group of people who feel the same, just like i belong to a group of people who didn't enjoy Wicked, and there's a group of people who did... fine... does not make me elitist, nor them... Updated On: 8/9/04 at 09:37 AM

[Plum]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 10:40am

Thank you for that post, Margo.

The real outrage isn't that some shows provoke less thought than Caroline- it's that so little thought was put into them in the first place.

Avenue Q, for example, has depth, but it isn't the multi-layered production that Caroline is. And that's perfectly fine, because a lot of thought went into the show. It's creative and well-crafted as well as fun. You come out of it with a smile on your face, but not feeling like you've been insulted.

I'm actually pretty good at turning my brain off- I watch stupid movies on TV all the time for fun. But $60-100 is a ton of money for me. I worked hard to get that money, so when I watch a Broadway show, I want to know that the creators worked hard to make something good for me to watch and didn't just slap together something haphazardly.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 10:46am

Yay, Plum!!! agree 100%!!!

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 12:50pm

I'm someone who loves my Caroline, or Change CD, and who lists Wicked as my favorite show right now (not the best show, but my favorite), and I can understand where bronxboundexpress is coming from.

On this board at least, it seems that there is a small double standard regarding posting about certain shows. On this board, it seems to be ok to bash or constantly criticize a certain kind of show, and many posters are applauded when they go to threads of those shows to make jabs against not only the show but the actual actors in it and it's fanbase, and they do it often. However, when one does that to Caroline, or Change and their fanbase, it seems like a sin and the person isn't welcomed to that thread. It's just as observation I've made.

That said, I don't agree with bronxboundexpress's assement on Caroline, or Change because I think it is one of the best shows on Broadway right now. However, that doesn't mean the show is flawless and should be free of criticism either. It's a shame that it's closing so soon.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 1:06pm

VietGrl, this can be said of most shows out there... Wicked has its detractors who are constantly being told NOT to read the posts if they can't give constructive reasons why, and i think that can be said of any thread about any show, including Caroline... Look at the posts regarding Dracula... so far there are those who love it and those who don't but there is no bashing of it, just respectful discourse... there are however, certain posters, of which you name one, who post to certain threads for no other reason than to bash them... look at Margo's posts... never bashing, but always an insightful critique of a show, and pretty much everyone respects that... read why Margo doesn't like Mamma Mia... is that a reason for Margo to NOT post about it? the double standard you speak of really only applies to a few posters, and not in general... and, admittedly, i've bashed a show here and there just for the heck of it, but you know what? it's not worth the energy if i can't back it up with sound reasoning...

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 1:19pm

I should have written my reply better because I basically agree with you Joeyjoe. However, what I'm talking about is people's response to those critiqes, and that's where I feel there is a difference. It seems one can be harsher to one show than to the other. And I agree that it is only a few posters who do that, but I do see them getting props for their post. Whereas one doesn't get one when they do a similar type of respone for shows like Caroline, or Change...and I don't think it's because there hasn't been posts that can be compared because I do.

On another topic,
I think a person should be free to post a critique, and I personally love to read well-written ones. I really love reading Margo's posts because I feel they are well-written and thought out. BTW, my favorite one is her analysis of Caroline, or Change.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 2:12pm

I just had to jump in on this! For myself, I don't feel elitest or any better than other theatregoers who didn't see, won't see or didn't understand COC. I saw it on April 27th. When I walked out of the theatre I knew I had seen something very important and good. It dawned on me that, as far as musicals go, there is nothing out there like it. I have found that a lot of musicals mask a bad book with a lot of special effects and eye popping scenery (I know someone will hate me for this but I was not thrilled with The Lion King!) In my opininon, and this is only my opinion, the huge splashy shows of the 80's along with the Disneyfication of B'way have, for lack of a better term, groomed theatregoers to think "this is theatre". And no, not much of the stuff out there is challenging. I saw Wicked and loved it. Loved Caroline also. I didn't see Mama Mia simply because I am not a big Abba fan. I think part of it is that COC is original. So much else out there draws it's music from other mediums. And that get's tiring. for me at least. COC was refreshing because I walked in, and I didn't know the music. And sometimes I feel B'way is selling out just for a buck. Throw a big splashy musical out there with music ans a story that people are familiar with and the tourists flock to it. For myself, I want to see new and challenging works. And that's what Caroline is. I won't stop seeing other shows but COC was like a breath of fresh air. I am rambling now! But that's how I feel about the subject.

[joeyjoe]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 2:29pm

uncageg, well-stated!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 3:16pm

"Are the people who like CAROLINE OR CHANGE really smarter or better than the poeple who prefer MAMMA MIA!?"

I enjoy both for being exactly what they are. It is possible to see different shows for different reasons and enjoying them all.

MusicMan's comments don't surprise me in the least. He says the same thing about LaChiusa.

[Plum]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 3:30pm

I don't feel better or smarter than people who haven't seen Caroline- I feel lucky. I want them to see it, too, because they might discover something great. And I feel pretty frickin' resentful when I'm characterized as an intellectual snob because of my preference in shows.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 3:38pm

In reading all of these posts, the words that are not always appearing are...."In my opinion". Bronx....I love tea but don't eat crumpets! And I don't look down on anyone who like's Mama Mia. And no, you don't have to like COC. And I can see people not liking it maybe not only for it's being challenging but even for it's music or performances. We all can't like the same things. And if you prefer Mama Mia, more power to you! I am new here but I take it you do like theatre. And I think it is great for anyone to see any kind of theatre. Especially our youth. I just think that all of these posts should be looked at as personal opinions. I read Margo's post and I just look at it as her opinion. I gave up my seats for Mama Mia here in Denver to take a group of youths to see "A Christmas Carol". My friends saw Mama Mia and raved about it. Oh, and thank you Joey! I do tend to ramble though!!!

[crp2000]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:11pm

IMHO - Those who saw "Caroline, or Change" are DEFINITELY SMARTER than those who made a conscious decision NOT to see it!!! :P

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:17pm

It's funny, but Caroline or Change seems to have strong residual effects. Jarico didn't care much for it when he saw it, but now he loves the show. I remember reading some other posts from those who were not overwhelmed by the show, but upon reflection, enjoyed it more (I think Namo fell into that category). I just wish I could see it again before it's gone. Does anyone else think Veanne Cox was brilliant in the thankless role of the stepmother?

[Plum]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:26pm

I think Veanne Cox and Tonya Pinkins had the two most difficult roles, in terms of getting the audience to connect with their characters. Pinkins' Caroline, of course, is just plain cranky and mean. And Cox's Rose has to sing kind of unpleasantly and also sets off all the conflict in the story. But both actresses are just masterful- Rose's teary phone call to her father wins instant sympathy, and Caroline builds sympathy over a longer period of time through gradual revelations about her past.

So yes, I thought Veanne Cox was great in a very hard part. :) Updated On: 8/9/04 at 04:26 PM

[crp2000]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:28pm

I bought the OBC recording before seeing the show and thought it was GARBAGE!! It wasn't until I actually saw the show and witnessed the passion/emotion with which these characters were portrayed that I fell in love with it. Seeing the show made the OBC recording 'make sense'.

Oh - V. Cox was GREAT & Deborah Cox is a SUPERSTAR!!

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 4:39pm

I have to agree. I came out of the show really impressed with Ms. Cox's performance. I was not as impressed with Ms. Pinkins. But I was at a preview and she may have been holding back a bit. "Lot's wife" was still electrifying though! And I just loved the "Radio" and Anika Noni Rose! When she sang "Mama there's money. Down in the laundry. Dig for the money". I just got goosebumps. Especially with the music and the strings. It's my favorite musical section of the show.

[thirdrowcenter]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 7:35pm

I agree Veanne Cox was perfect in the role of the stepmother. I cared about her character. She was understated and powerful.

[MusicMan]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 10:53pm

The notion that CAROLINE OR CHANGE is 'thought-provoking' is just too hilarious. There are more provocative ideas in the opening three minutes of THE LION KING, dealing with culture, anthropology, theatre arts, ritual and myth, not to mention the powerful emotions they generate, than in the entire 2 1/2 hours of half-baked, ham-fisted and derivative pretension that is COC.

[Kicks8567]

Posted: 8/9/04 at 11:58pm

How stupid can you get?? I am 15, and easily understood the premise. These people need to inquire about a show BEFORE they buy tickets. Just stick to touristy shows like Beauty and the Beast for goodness sakes.

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 8/10/04 at 12:00am

It is true that on this board it is very easy and common for someone to bash a show like CATS, BOMBAY DREAMS, or STARLIGHT EXPRESS and get away with it but does seems like a sin when someone bashes a show like COC. I think it is posibble for sophisticated people who are smart and make a lot of money or whatever to be bored stiff seeing COC (even though they understand it at the same level as you guys) and much rather go see MAMMA MIA!. I know several people like that. I think COC is a great story but I just turned away because I can't enjoy that weird talking-sounding "sondheim" type music. My flaw is I can only stand "normal" music that is melodic and popular sounding which is why I go to MAMMA MIA! and MOVIN' OUT even though I know they're easy shows. If I want a great story and great acting that's more challenging, I go to a straight play. Margo, I still want to hear your posts. My comments about homeless people and dismissing MAMMA MIA! shows and tea and crumpets was only a general overall tone I sensed and I'm sorry if I was wrong.

[NuggetMonkeys]

Posted: 8/10/04 at 12:06am

Veanne Cox ISSS amazing. She truly is a fantassstic actres, I look forward to her next event.
-d.b.j-

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 8/10/04 at 12:17am

Matt, I really loved Caroline from about 15 minutes into it. My companion, The Colonel (Ret.) liked it well enough as we saw it, but as the weeks went by and the more he thought about it, the more he loved it.

One thing I don't get BBE, is your use of words like "intellectual" as if they're supposed to be some sort of insult that we're supposed to shrink from. I'm not really sure how it's come to be that way in our culture, but it really is the ultimate insult to be accused of actually using the brains god gave you.

MusicMan, this is the weakest grade school book report list I've read outside of an actual grade school:

"There are more provocative ideas in the opening three minutes of THE LION KING, dealing with culture, anthropology, theatre arts, ritual and myth, not to mention the powerful emotions they generate..." and I believe I read the exact same Julie Taymor article that listed those same things as you did.

[uncageg]

Posted: 8/10/04 at 12:27am

bronx, Don't say you have a flaw! You enjoy what you enjoy. There are definetly some people on here that are very passionate about this show! (Heck, I am! I love this show! And I can't stop listening to it!) But as I posted before, it is their opinion. I am a huge Sondheim fan and a lot of poeple don't like him. I will defend how much I love his work forever. And I own 2 copies of the Wicked cast recording and listen to that constantly too! But I will never tell anyone they are stupid for not liking Sondheim or Wicked. You apologized for some things you said and that's cool. But I can see why you may have said those things. Some of the posts are pretty strong in opinion. I am new here and I am sure someone is not going to like something I say. But that's alright, we are all entitled to our opinions! (Do ya think I have driven the opinion thing home yet?!!!) :)

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 8/10/04 at 2:45am

Thanks for that BBE. I have to say that I thoroughly enjoyed "Movin Out" -- one of the best uses of dance to tell a story and flesh our characters and make for an exciting evening of theatre that I have ever seen on a Broadway stage. Tharp and her dancers were brilliant and used the Joel songs with intelligence and a great understanding what they were saying lyrically. The dance and staging made sense and were crafted and developed with a keen sense of theatre and in a way that logically reflected the essential stories behind the pop songs being danced to. Really a terrific show (that led me to see her company at the Joyce a month or two later do one of their regular evenings of modern dance -- also brilliant).

My issue isn't with pop music being used in Broadway shows, it's that in MAMMA MIA and certain other shows, that there was a lack of care and craft and know-how employed in the ways that these songs were used within a dramatic framework. Look, it's HARD to tell a story using music and dance, the greatest practitioners of the artform (Prince, Bennett, Robbins, Sondheim, Rodgers et al) could tell you many stories about how difficult it is and how much they struggled to get just a small moment to work. So it's galling to see shows that have obvious shortcomings and gaping holes in logic in their narratives, be able to sell themselves to the public, flaws and all, just because they've hitched their wagons to a pop music catalogue that will sell tickets no matter how bad the underlying show happens to be.

There's a world of difference in terms of talent and professionalism and "know-how" between shows like MAMMA MIA, or FAME THE MUSICAL (the original movie, incidentally, is a favorite of mine), or SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER OR URBAN COWBOY or FOOTLOOSE and shows like HAIRSPRAY and DREAMGIRLS and HEDWIG and BRING IN DA NOISE and MOVIN' OUT. In the former group, you have folks who really had no idea what they were doing and yet were trying to sell a "product" to the masses with inferior story-telling and character development, figuring the audience would accept the mediocre package because it contained a bunch of well-known songs -- with the exception of MAMMA MIA, the audience refused to bite (and that's mostly because of the big audience-participation dance concert at the end). In the latter group you have creative teams who understand how to tell a story and develop characters using contemporary musical forms, who knew how to put on fun and entertaining shows that speak to today's audiences, who managed to be dazzling and exciting, and still be smart and have substance -- all those shows had something to say, but still made for a fun night out at the theatre.

Personally, I see CAROLINE in the same light. I really don't see it as pretentious or as some kind of "tea and crumpet" experience. It's not as if any of it resembles some 20th century opera by Strauss or Hindemith or Virgil Thompson or Ned Rorem or one of the experimental atonal composers that only a half dozen people on the upper west side understands. Tesori wrote a score that was mostly blues and jazz and gospel and 60's R&B ..... considering how utterly dismissed those genres have been by the so-called "elite" for most of their histories, how on earth can something written in any of those forms EVER be considered "pretentious" or for the "tea and crumpet" set? Those people spent most of the last century spitting on this kind of music.

CAROLINE consists almost entirely of musical themes and melodies that are straight out of Cab Calloway and Bessie Smith and Etta James and Sam Cooke and Benny Goodman and Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Sevens and Lower East Side klezmer bands and the Marvellettes and the Vandellas -- stuff that came pouring out of radios in 1963. I wasn't born then, but I responded strongly to this score, because so much of it reminded me of what I used to hear growing up from my parents' jazz and oldies r&b radio stations. My affinity for this score is not pretentious, it's a remarkable reflection of the pop and jazz and blues music I grew to love through my parents' records and radio stations (incidentally, they saw the show and absolutely loved it).

Perhaps, the recitatives are not to your liking. You probably hate Veanne Cox's music as Rose, as well as any conversations involving her -- the music is prickly, disjointed, talky, everything I'm sure you just can't stand about Sondheim and other modern composers (understand, though, that they often write the most annoying and unattractive music for the characters they don't want you to like, or for the characters they want to set apart in the plot -- trust me, there's a reason that Cox barely has a single pretty or melodic phrase in the entire show).

You make a very interesting point when you say "If I want a great story and great acting that's more challenging, I go to a straight play." One of the real break-throughs that I think CAROLINE was trying to achieve was to crack the whole straight play/musical dichotomy in the theatre-going audience. It's been the oddest thing for me -- all of my friends that typically enjoy ONLY plays and hate any and ALL musicals have all seemed to have fallen in love with CAROLINE (including one rock musician friend of mine who actually walked out with 3 friends from his band of the last revival of "Man of La Mancha" after "The Impossible Dream" because they were utterly miserable from the experience -- he and those same friends have seen CAROLINE 4 times already and plan to go back once more before it closes), while several of my friends who prefer musicals generally didn't like CAROLINE initially when they saw it, and only after repeated listens to the cast album are they now even grudgingly willing to accept it (though a couple of them really love it now).

For many musical fans, it's just TOO different from the expectations one normally has when one walks into a musical. By the time, some people I know GOT that this wasn't your typical musical and that it had a pace and vibe that was all its own, it was too late -- the show had pissed them off and they just couldn't adjust to its very different rhythms and mode of story-telling that it was employing.

The funny thing is that Tesori (Millie), Wolfe (Jelly's Last Jam, Bring in Da Noise) and Kushner (Angels) have all demonstrated very well that they know exactly how to provide "flash" and hoopla and pizzazz to an audience. They know full well what all of the cardinal rules and audience expectations they are supposed to satisfy in the case of a musical show. But in this case, for this story, they ignored all of them and decided to follow only the dictates of this particular story and the very particular character whose rhythms are different, whose sensibilty is different -- the internal logic of this piece as constructed dictated that there couldn't be any splashy chorus numbers or showstopping dance breaks. Wolfe has certainly put them together for other shows before this one (and Tesori certainly knew how to write that kind of music), but such crowd-pleasing measures wouldn't have been true to the piece. Had Wolfe and Tesori done that, perhaps the show wouldn't be closing in two weeks, but apparently such compromises were never considered. I salute them or their courage and artistic integrity.

I have loved this show since the first time I saw it at the 3rd preview at the Public, and my sense of enjoyment had absolutely nothing to do with any "high art" pretension. Tonya Pinkins' Caroline broke my heart -- she reminds me of way too many relatives and parents of friends whom I knew growing up who were trapped in dead end existences, but continued on in their situations for the sake of their families. Her story speaks to me. Her music speaks to me. The entire show hits me on a very basic, human level that few theatrical pieces have ever managed to. The show has managed to capture a story that resonates with me on so many levels -- I frankly don't care if you or critics or other people hate it, don't get it, think its pretentious, think its about nothing ...... I have no desire to argue about this anymore...... for me it's powerful, intense and a deeply meaningful thing to experience. If it isn't for you, then so be it.

Updated On: 8/10/04 at 02:45 AM