Chess concert CD?- Page 3

[Chrysanthemum62001]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 6:32pm

I've heard Michael Cerveris sing "The Story of Chess" and I LOVE it.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 6:41pm

It definitely does seem that that was the intent, but even metaphorically the "Story of Chess" at the end thing works for me. Having it at the beginning and as a reprise could be good, though.

I agree that it's Florence's story... but the book needs a ton of work if it's ever going to play again. Would the Cold War politics thing even still fly these days (I like it, but I mean with commercial audiences)? Something really should be done with it, though, because so much of the music is great.

Posted: 2/9/06 at 6:58pm

Then, he asks for sympathy.

Isn't that the whole point, though? I always thought of "Pity the Child" as a redemption song, not a song that should preface bad behavior. Whether the song is effective in redeeming Freddie's character is left up to the auidence to decide.

Of course, this is all a matter of personal opinion. The song has always struck me as a song that should be sung far after Freddie's bad behavior in a last-ditch effort to garner sympathy from the audience, but I can definitely see both of your points as well. Personally, I think the song has the ability to redeem Freddie when executed correctly. Someone muttering through the song a la Murray Head on the concept recording isn't going to get the necessary sympathy required to save Freddie's character, so to speak, but I honestly think Pascal's performance did the trick. (Granted, perhaps I'm letting my personal biases sneak in and I do think it would have been more effective if he weren't reading off the book.)

Anyway, to be perfectly honest, I couldn't care less where "The Story of Chess" is placed. It's a pretty song, but I don't think of it as crucial to character development or one of the stand-out songs in general.

I don't want to harp on the subject Julia Murney since I know I've made my feelings about her clear quite a few times, but I don't find her voice remotely pleasing. It's funny someone mentioned Sutton Foster as an example of this earlier because to me, Sutton is the example of a nearly flawless, easy to listen to voice. Julia's vibrato irritates me, I can't stand how she sounds as if she's always howling, and the yowl in "Nobody's Side" is one of the worst things I've ever heard. Perhaps I should check out more of her work before making a definitive decision on her as a performer, but I haven't liked what I heard. If you enjoy her voice, more power to you... I just don't.

Then again, I've always seen the game of Chess as a metaphor for the love story and political story...which was, I'm sure, the intent.

My friend and I were discussing Chess and after a while, summed up the story in almost that exact sentence. It's funny to note that despite the title, the actual show is, in a way, about everything BUT chess.

I agree that it's Florence's story... but the book needs a ton of work if it's ever going to play again. Would the Cold War politics thing even still fly these days (I like it, but I mean with commercial audiences)?

I agree. It would need a major overhaul. To me, it's unfortunate because I love that aspect of the story, but there's no reason to believe that reviving the musical with a book similiar to that of its Broadway run would produce better results than the first time. On a completely different note, I hope that if the musical is ever revived, someone figures out a way to finally make the character of Anatoly likeable. I honestly can't stand the guy despite the fact that I think I'm supposed to like him and he's supposed to be the protagonist of sorts.
Updated On: 2/9/06 at 06:58 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:13pm

On a completely different note, I hope that if the musical is ever revived, someone figures out a way to finally make the character of Anatoly likeable. I honestly can't stand the guy despite the fact that I think I'm supposed to like him and he's supposed to be the protagonist of sorts.

Really? I liked Anatoly, although overall he seemed underdeveloped as a character (but as with anything, that impression might come from the actor rather than the written character). I'm in love with the song "Anthem," so I'll definitely admit some bias in favor of his character. I think Freddie's a great character and I see your points about "Pity the Child," but placement-wise it just feels... awkward. And sort of whiny. I guess I just fall into the category of people who don't buy it.

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:25pm

Really? I liked Anatoly, although overall he seemed underdeveloped as a character (but as with anything, that impression might come from the actor rather than the written character). I'm in love with the song "Anthem," so I'll definitely admit some bias in favor of his character.

I love "Anthem," too. In fact, I love all of Anatoly's songs. With regards to his character, though, I found myself asking, "Why should I sympathize with someone who deserted his wife and kids for a mistress?" I know he's in love with Florence, etc etc, and maybe watching a full production of Chess would reveal that Svetlana was an unlikable person, but I found myself sympathizing far more with her than Anatoly.

I think Freddie's a great character and I see your points about "Pity the Child," but placement-wise it just feels... awkward. And sort of whiny. I guess I just fall into the category of people who don't buy it.

I definitely understand where you're coming from as well. I agree that PTC feels out of place, especially in the concert, but I'm not sure putting it in the first act would solve the problem (again, just a personal opinion). I'm sure adding actual dialogue would help the problem as well, regardless of the actual song placement.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:37pm

With regards to his character, though, I found myself asking, "Why should I sympathize with someone who deserted his wife and kids for a mistress?"

It sounds, though, as if Anatoly and Svetlana had been growing apart for quite some time. She knows that. That of course doesn't excuse his fleeing the country without her or their children and taking Florence as a mistress, but I think there's bound to have been a lot going on behind the scenes with their relationship. I don't know if anything is ever said to that effect in the musical, but I kind of assumed that they'd been separated beforehand. Maybe not though... once again, things in the book that could stand to be cleared up. Updated On: 2/9/06 at 07:37 PM

[NCGuy]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:38pm

Personally, I think the song has the ability to redeem Freddie when executed correctly.

That's interesting, siamese dream. I've never thought we were supposed to sympathize with the American; Tim Rice's (well, pre-Elton John/Disney Tim Rice's) lyrics are too cynical for that. I've just always taken the song at face value, five minutes of the American wallowing in self-pity (which Murray Head nails perfectly).

The book has gone through so many changes at this point, who knows what the original intent was...to me the theme (of the concept recording, anyway) has always been you can't depend on anyone, everyone is always looking out for his own best interests, and your "one true obligation" is to yourself ("nobody's on nobody's side"); doesn't Florence end up alone at the end of the show?

As far as an overhaul of the book's cold war themes, I can't imagine how the show would work (if indeed it works at all) without them; they are just too embedded in the music and the story.

Updated On: 2/9/06 at 07:38 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:44pm

As far as an overhaul of the book's cold war themes, I can't imagine how the show would work (if indeed it works at all) without them; they are just too embedded in the music and the story.

Me neither, really, but it's disappointing to think that it would be too dated to play again. Maybe I'm underestimating people's interest, but somehow I doubt it...

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:50pm

Well, in Act 1, Pity the Child is placed as a last attempt to garner sympathy from the audience. It is placed after Frederick pushes Florence to the brink, and she quits. Of course, it's all in the way it is staged. If Florence isn't onstage, it is a plea to the audience. If she is onstage, it's a plea to her. And since the audience probably sympathizes most with Florence, the audience will side with Florence.

To me, this song should be about Frederick trying to redeem himself. When Florence quits and just leaves him, despite his plea to "pity the child," I think Frederick is left destroyed - leading to his downfall on the chess board.

So, in Act 1, Pity the Child is a plea for love and to save his game.

In Act 2, since he is already done with, the song just seems futile. I don't think we really like him anymore, because of his arrogance. So you have this great, powerful song wasted because he's lost our sympathy already. Furthermore, it is also after Frederick enrages Anatoly during the interview.

I think that the song works better as a last attempt to save his relationship (professionally and emotionally) with Florence. But when she denies it, he is left completely devasted.

I hope that all makes sense.

Now, to me, Anatoly is difficult to manage - and it is better that Florence because the complete protagonist of the story.

The problem is, we ARE in the Cold War and, if the audience is American (ie: on Broadway), it is likely we will sympathize with the US team before learning about the characters. When we see the violent way in which Freddie treats Florence, versus Anatoly's caring, respectful manner, we begin to sympathize with Anataloy. It is at this point when we lose interest and respect for Frederick - the same point Florence quits (like I said, we follow Florence more than anything). This can go back to why "Pity the Child" works best here.

I think the show works best with us not knowing of Anatloy's personal life until Act 2...when Frederick brings up Svetlana. I mean, I think we should know about his family, but from his perspective - so we DO sympathize with him and his yearning of a relationship with Florence.

Now, the question is how should Svetlana be played. This show is very confusing because ACT 2 seems to be more about the political ploys and resolving the relationships. If Svetlana is played as a horrid person, we will still sympathize with Anataloy...and Svetlana becomes rather futile. Also, why would Anatoly return to her?

No, I think Svetlana has to come on the set and seem like the innocent victim. When Anatloy finally sees Svetlana, he realizes he should be with her...and back in his homeland.

To go back to the placement of PITY THE CHILD, and to resolve the relationship between Frederick and Florence, I believe that Frederick trying to help Anatoly out is the true turning point in an attempt to win back Florence.

He's lost sympathy, so words won't win us over. He needs to actually DO something (like Mister in TCP). Freddie needs to help Anatoly and prove he has another side.


The biggest problem is that CHESS has many stories, and many endings. A lot of how we feel is which recording we are used to - or rather, which story we prefer. The show has sort of dug itself into a hole - where it has a huge fan base - but each person prefers a different version of the story. And because of the complexities of the show, the stories can't really be combined.

ETA:
re: The Cold War setting - I don't think it really is dated. It is a historical piece. It is a love story set against the Cold War and how it has affected all parts of life - including sports, like Chess. Sort of like the movie "MIRACLE."

Updated On: 2/9/06 at 07:50 PM

Posted: 2/9/06 at 7:55pm

once again, things in the book that could stand to be cleared up.

Exactly. While I think your assessment of the Svetlana/Anatoly relationship is correct, I'd like to have a bit more insight into it. I always interpreted it as a relationship that was growing apart because of Anatoly's ambition -- or at least something he was responsible for. Again, the book really needs to clear that up rather than have me make wild assumptions about their characters.

That's interesting, siamese dream. I've never thought we were supposed to sympathize with the American; Tim Rice's (well, pre-Elton John/Disney Tim Rice's) lyrics are too cynical for that. I've just always taken the song at face value, five minutes of the American wallowing in self-pity (which Murray Head nails perfectly).

Heh. Your paragraph was equally interesting to me because I never thought the pure intent of the song is to have Freddie wallow around in pity. If your interpretation is correct, then I'd agree that Head executes it perfectly. As a sidenote, I think Murray Head is generally fantastic and always wondered why his "Pity the Child" was subpar. Perhaps it's not subpar but rather a different interpration of the song than mine. Very cool. :)

In that case, perhaps sweetestsiren's inability to sympathize with Freddie is "correct," so to speak. I'll probably never stop viewing "Pity the Child" as a song written to redeem Freddie to some extent simply because my original feelings regarding songs seem to stick, but again, that's a neat spin on it (or perhaps I'm the one putting the spin on the song!).

Pascal's version was the first I heard, and I think he put too much outward rage into the song for it to be interpreted as a song that purely shows Freddie wallowing in self-pity. It's also very possible that I subconsciously wanted to sympathize with Adam's character because I'm a fan of his, therefore affecting my opinion of the character and his songs in general.

Edit: Wow, nice post, BSoBW3. I didn't see it until after I posted. My head is spinning so I can't really address everything you mentioned, other than I really do think PTC is such an inherently subjective song with regards to both its interpretation and placement. I still feel that it can redeem Freddie -- at least somewhat -- to an audience already mostly turned against him by Act II, but that also raises the question as to whether the audience is even supposed to sympathize with Freddie. It's such a complicated matter. Updated On: 2/9/06 at 07:55 PM

[NCGuy]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 8:11pm

The biggest problem is that CHESS has many stories, and many endings. A lot of how we feel is which recording we are used to - or rather, which story we prefer.

BSoBW3, I think it's fascinating that there are so many interpretations of the show, but the various recordings/productions support all of our opinions, no matter how conflicting they are.

siamese dream, you mentioned Adam Pascal's performance was the first you'd heard...I'm curious, how was everyone else here first exposed to the show/score?

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 8:14pm

My first, if you can't tell, is the Danish Tour Cast.

Hard for me to listen to any other one.

ETA:

I don't think there will truly be an ULTIMATE Chess. I mean, if they want to satisfy all of us, they will have to leave many details to our imaginations - which, you know, the audience won't like.

Then, of course, if they create a certain story line, excluding others, fans of the excluded plots will be upset.

Updated On: 2/9/06 at 08:14 PM

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 9:55pm

Awesome post up there, BSoBW. Very nice job of pointing out the strengths and weaknesses of the show and its different versions. I personally think that it sounds like a much better idea to have "Pity the Child" directed towards Florence if we are, indeed, supposed to pity him. If we aren't (and I find myself not, really), then it's fine where it is. It's an intriguing idea that we aren't supposed to root for the American just because that's what we'd do by default. On the other hand, we get out of rooting for "the enemy" because Anatoly defects from the Soviet Union. Updated On: 2/10/06 at 09:55 PM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 10:07pm

On the recording, Julia Murney does indeed have pitch problems. She must have sounded better live.

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 10:08pm

Well, Anatoly defects after we begin to dislike Freddie.

Then in Act 2 - we end up having to choose between two Russians.

Or do we?

Maybe Act 2 is about rooting for Florence?

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 10:12pm

Do we ever like Freddie anyway? When he's first introduced it's during his fight with Florence where he's been making a complete mockery of the tournament and is very rude to her. I like him as a character, but I didn't find myself rooting for him.

[BSoBW3]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 10:21pm

Very true.

I think, of all, Molokov is the catalyst...pushing Svetlana into forcing Anatoly to take the fall.

I think that's very important. I mean, Molokov uses the same tactics in Act 1.

I love that Anatoly basically becomes Frederick in Act 2. And he doesn't even see Molokov's next moves...moves he ALWAYS uses.

And he's the Chess player!

Not to mention, having Florence choose to save her father.

Updated On: 2/9/06 at 10:21 PM

Posted: 2/9/06 at 11:10pm

Do we ever like Freddie anyway? When he's first introduced it's during his fight with Florence where he's been making a complete mockery of the tournament and is very rude to her. I like him as a character, but I didn't find myself rooting for him.

I agree. The question as to whether Freddie does (or has the ability to) indeed scrap up some sympathy -- and well, pity -- from the audience is just a difference of personal opinion on our parts, but I don't think the audience is ever really endeared to Freddie from the start. I like his character in the same way I like Javert from Les Mis, but he's not ever really a character you "root" for.

On another note, it's great to see such a thought-provoking thread on an underrated musical.

[rainchild]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 11:15pm

I have a DVD of the show (no I'm not telling where I got it!) and I absolutely loved it! Loved Josh and Adam, hated Julia! (what's with the screeching?)
couple of thoughts on what has been said....I think svetlana has to be a sympathetic character...when she first comes back Anatoly addresses the affair right away..he says "Svetlana, you know there was nothing going on between us..." I think he means Svetlana and himself! He can't be trying to deny the affair with Florence because it's been all over the news. their mairrage was long over before he met Florence. That's what makes the You and I scene between them so sweet...he has never dealt with the end of their marriage and now it turns out that she still loves him and he still cares because of their history!

[Theatreboy33]

Posted: 2/9/06 at 11:56pm

According to Seth Rudetsky, Groban's label would not allow the CD. Simply that. It's a damn shame too. That was a superb concert.

[Timmerbo]

Posted: 2/10/06 at 12:42pm

siamese dream - thanks again for the recording. I've listened to it several times.

The dialogue you mentioned between Svetlana and Anatoly was so badly done in the concert.

If you want to hear a truly subpar version of 'Pity the Child' by Murray Head, go to his unofficial website and download the video of him singing it in concert. He also does 'Florence Quits/A Taste of Pity', and though he almost forgets the words, the ending is cool.

Does anyone have the full verions of these concerts? They baffle me.
Murray Head Unofficial Site

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/10/06 at 3:08pm

NCGuy said:
The book has gone through so many changes at this point, who knows what the original intent was...to me the theme (of the concept recording, anyway) has always been you can't depend on anyone, everyone is always looking out for his own best interests, and your "one true obligation" is to yourself ("nobody's on nobody's side"); doesn't Florence end up alone at the end of the show?

She ends up alone at the end (although I'm not familiar with the multiple versions of the show) because Anatoly cared enough for her to throw the match and return to his country. I think that she's the main character in that it's her story, but she's not the most likable. Florence isn't on anybody's side, but that doesn't mean that no one else is. So I guess I don't see it as being quite as pessimistic as that.

I want to watch the clips that are on Head's website, but they won't play for me. I'm going to take a minute to vent and wonder why it seems like EVERY BROADWAY PERFORMER EVER sees fit to use Real Media files on their websites. Sure, pick the worst, least compatible, most quickly on its way to being obsolete filetype. Updated On: 2/10/06 at 03:08 PM

[Michael Bennett]

Posted: 2/10/06 at 3:12pm

If you want to see two amazing CHESS performances - watch the video of the OBC at Lincoln Center. The show is a mess, but David Carroll's vocals are glorious, and Judy Kuhn's performance is just extraordinary. Her final scene is absolutely devastating.

[sweeedboy]

Posted: 2/10/06 at 3:57pm

I know this has been said a million times but i guess it needs restating. The Danish Cast recording is, for the most part, exactly what the ORIGINAL Chess was, in London. It is the original story with most of the music.

This story focused more on Florence and Anatoly and placed secondary status on Freddie/Svetlana/etc. Freddie doesn't even play chess in the second act as he returns as a TV correspondant. I really love this version. While flawed, it has some incredible mind game moments that reflect the game played physically and emotionally. I really wish they would go back to the original version and see what happens.

As for Florence ending the show, it made perfect sense. The story isn't all about Anatoly, it is largely about Florence. The duality of her reprising Anthem, for completely different reasons, is incredibly powerful. I think this show needs a full scale revival, the score is just magnificent, and the story, incredibly detailed...if pulled off correctly, and therein lies the rub.

[sweetestsiren]

Posted: 2/10/06 at 4:28pm

Is the Danish Tour recording findable anywhere? I did some research into which recording to buy and a lot of people seem to prefer that one, but I'm having trouble finding it. Updated On: 2/10/06 at 04:28 PM