Do you feel that Sondheim is a better composer or lyricist?- Page 4

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:31am

Sondheim does not usually writ his own orchestrations.

Now, some people who think that he and other musical theater songwriters can do no wrong will bring up the issue of re-writes and the time constraints involved in putting together a musical but frankly, from personal experience I know that's bull**it. Composers themselves have told me that that is not the case, it's just an excuse. Most musical theater songwriters have very little or even no experience with instrumentation, and in my opinion, orchestration is part and parcel of the compositional process.

hence songwriters vs. composers. I don't think the two terms are interchangeable. HOWEVER, unlike some people with the soundtrack vs. cast recording debate, I don't push it on other people.

Just my two cents since you were asking for information.

[FranzRelax]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:41am

Fenchurch only hates Sondheim because he apparently "physically hurt" hurt his friend.

There I said it.

[SamIAm]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:54am

I have never been compelled to MAKE someone agree with me and the Sondheim discussion has been done to death so I won't try to convince you that his music will last long after he is gone. So...the following opinions are just MINE and I do not ask that you agree with me.

I am just curious as to how you can predict that he will be forgotten so quickly? I love Adam Guettel but he too can be uneven as are MOST composers. This is an art...not a science. Rather than compare or hold one composer over another, I would prefer to let them all grow and thrive and let history determine whose music will last.

As for whether Sondheim is creatively, technically or musically a great composer, many musicologists, critics and audiences have judged him to meet all the requirements. True, his compositions can be too complex, cerebral and dissonant for some...but that is taste. When judged on pure talent, it is hard to find him wanting IMHO.

And his "look at me" attitude? Sondheim is not a huge egomaniac who seeks attention and adoration. He does not compose for anyone other than himself. Yes, he is clever, and he uses the English language well. That does not mean he is being a "show off".

What I HAVE found is that many people come to Sondheim slowly...and that his music grows on them. Typically, I like to hear his music before I see the show if I can because I find I enjoy the music a lot more if I have had a chance to hear it first. There is so much to hear that you often fail to catch all the subtleties.

[misschung]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:56am

Thanks, fenchurch. I really am curious because that whole area is a bit murky to me. I don't know how the process - even though it's unique to each creative team, I'm sure - works. And yes, I agree - orchestration is absolutely integral to the compositional process. I would probably not be such a fan of Company if it weren't for the orchestrations - Tunick's and Campbell's - heightening and expressing, and frankly validating, Sondheim's lyrics.

the issue of re-writes and the time constraints involved in putting together a musical but frankly, from personal experience I know that's bull**it. Composers themselves have told me that that is not the case, it's just an excuse.

Can you elaborate on this, because I'm not sure what you're referring to

[thesondhead]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 3:40pm

"He's a good but uneven composer. (at his best, there isn't anything better... When he's off, it can be pretty god-awful and painful)"

I will go so far as to agree with that, but I don't think he reaches the "god-awful" low very frequently.

Regarding Tunick's orchestrations: Sondheim has said (I don't remember where) that he composes his piano parts so densely that all his orchestrators have to do is pull them out, adjust them, etc. They rarely are forced to create new material, which is why most Sondheim songs sound just as good with a simple piano.

And I agree with everything SamIAm said. I think he hit the nail precisely on the head.

[misschung]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 3:46pm

^ thanks for the Tunick info. Nice avatar, btw

What I HAVE found is that many people come to Sondheim slowly...and that his music grows on them. Typically, I like to hear his music before I see the show if I can because I find I enjoy the music a lot more if I have had a chance to hear it first. There is so much to hear that you often fail to catch all the subtleties

I agree with this, mostly because this is exactly what happened to me. I think most people dismiss Sondheim as being too "over their head" musically, but I disagree. I have to admit that I'm partial to his lyrics, maybe because I'm more of a reader and writer than musician. However, I do know a little bit about music, and yet I still absorb and interpret Sondheim's music verbally. I feel that his music isn't simply the background to his lyrics, but that both need to be actively listened to in a production. I'm not sure every Sondheim production has provided the opportunity for audiences to do that, which is maybe why people are a little intimidated by Sondheim's work. I don't know, though.

[thesondhead]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 4:05pm

No, that's definitely true. Many productions I've seen personally have let the music or lyrics fall second to the other, through crappy musicians or singers or bad amplification. The beauty of the material comes through a cohesive listen of both elements.