Do you feel that Sondheim is a better composer or lyricist?- Page 3

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 6:17pm

When Sondheim agreed to do Gypsy, it was on the condition that Styne wrote every song and used no trunk songs since he was infamous for doing that. It was only later that Sondheim found out that Styne had written the melody for "You'll Never Get Away From Me" for another show. I always thought that was funny.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 6:48pm

Bernstein definitely loved the tritones..."devil music"...ha. There's definitely lots in Candide, but I don't think it's so broadly used as it is in WSS. I certainly could be mistaken. Do you know Joey if they were present in his first symphonic compositions? I'm actually taking a Gershwin/Bernstein class next semester, I really can't contain my excitement to learn all about their different works, both for theatre and not.

Eric is correct, the music for Krupke was written by Bernstein for Candide. I believe the song Oh Happy We from Candide started as a tea scene between Tony and Maria.

The two did work closely on Something's Coming, it seems to be the last song they wrote--or at least the last song conceived and begun. It's kind of interesting to consider the fact that all of the Tony and Maria songs' melodies are derived from Something's Coming, which was written last. But still, the fact that the song ended on a tritone, Bernstein wrote to his wife how he f*cked it up with all his time changes and stuff...I mean he could have been taking credit from Sondheim, but...it's just too integrated to the rest of the score, too Bernstein IMO for me to believe that Sondheim more than slight effect on the music to that song. I totally could be wrong.

Same with Tonight Quintet. Starting on a tritone, filled with hemiolas...I mean to make that song work I'm sure the two of them had to work closely together, but...the music of the quintet is clearly a harder version of the Prologue.

Oh wow, cool that you read the book Joey! I don't think I'm able to view it so objectively because it's the first of its kind that I've read. Aside from major and minor decisions, which I've also read, do you know of any other books that so deeply musically analyze? I'd love to read more. I believe in addition to saying it was vague, he said neither answer was appropriate to the situation. The music doesn't fit if he's grieving for his wife, and simply going back to his "grief" of his own naivete doesn't fit the situation...pretty much the music doesn't fit the situation...I *think*. I definitely remember what you said about it being vague, but this is just what I remember...just borrowed the book from the library, so unfortunately don't have it in front of me

I didn't find his Sondheim chapter complaining, I found it very complementary to Sondheim, save for the little nitpick. I loved how he explained the motifs, and the dual motif of Sweeney that comes about in Epiphany. Except, I guess he said something about Sondheim is such a name to live up to, sometimes he himself can't do it...maybe that's what you're talking about?

I like Lenny's "flowerness." But I understand what you're saying, he does tend to go over the top...and I worship him for that

Funny story about Sondheim and Styne. Ha.

Posted: 7/26/07 at 9:11pm

"Oh wow, cool that you read the book Joey! I don't think I'm able to view it so objectively because it's the first of its kind that I've read. Aside from major and minor decisions, which I've also read, do you know of any other books that so deeply musically analyze?"

Banfield's book on Sondheim (blanking on the title but it's easy to find if you key in those words) is nearly all based around his music as opposed to hislyrics and is a wonderful read--though you need a bit of music theory to really appreciate it (which it sounds like you'd have no trouble with). It's VERY VERY dense though, but worth it.

I've not read Swain's book yet but is it true that "His review of A Chorus Line is so hostile that the authors, uniquely for the shows under review in this book, refused him permission to use extracts from the score." Ouch! Still sounds like a worthwhile read, whether I agree or not. (for the record I think the theme he mentions IS resolved at the end of Sweeney)

*edit* here's the Sondheim/Banfield book, which you're probably already aware of http://www.amazon.com/Sondheims-Broadway-Musicals-Michigan-American/dp/0472102230/ref=sr_1_1/102-8117943-7632933?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185500742&sr=1-1


E

Updated On: 7/26/07 at 09:11 PM

Posted: 8/21/07 at 11:23pm

Old post but I was flipping through the Seacrest/Sondheim book this weekend and remembered people talking about Spmething's Coming's music and who wrote it.

Meryle Secrest's Stephen Sondheim (page 119):

Quote
[Sondheim said] "...We realized we needed a character-introduction kind of song for Tony...a specific kind of song called a 'two-four', a very driving kind of song. Judy Garland and Larry [Kert] were the champs at that kind of song--trolley songs...Lennie Bernstein wrote the verse part and said 'How do you make this into a two-four?' He knew what it was, but it's a showbiz term more than a musical term. So I started to ad lib with the thumb line (that is to say, the cello line, an inner voice). That's what I contributed, the two-four part of that."

[Elphaba3]

Posted: 8/21/07 at 11:44pm

He's a good composer, but he's a brilliant lyricist.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 8/21/07 at 11:56pm

Sondheim on Music is a really great book, but you said you read that one. I don't know of very many books of this sort, but if you find out about any tell me about them! I enjoy reading them. I'd love to read one analyzing Bernstein.

[My Strongest Suit]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 12:15am

composer. definately his music.

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 12:22am

He's a better lyricist.

[JSousa]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 12:32am

Im going to go with music. As stated before, each lyric is driven by the emphasis that the music puts on it. His lyrics are beautiful, but put to any other melody or underscoring would not compare. Also, his music is a challenge. Something that many people could not craft as beautifully as Sondheim does. Such as his use of time changes, modulation and layering. His music touches me much more then the lyrics ever could.

[BroadwayBound062]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 1:05am

Right now I am doing a show in Iowa called "Celebrate Sondheim" to celebrate the opening of the Stephen Sondheim Center for Performing Arts. I really think that he is absolutely amazing at both but musically he is difficult to learn but its so intricate and interesting that I would say composer!

[Guillermo Ugarte]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 12:45pm

While most will recommend Sondheim for his lyrics, I think his unique presence in the rarified ranks is attributed to the balance he brings between melody and lyric.

Those who interpret his music and lyrics on stage know that he writes challenging music. Actors have to work hard to do the music justice but it is worth the effort.

His internal rhyming conventions are the best I have seen.

Listen to his most complex lyrics and pay special attention to the music that supports and elevates the lyric. Sondheim is human; certainly not a God to be revered, nor does he wish to be worshipped. That is not to say that we should ignore the unique honor we have to live at the same time as this unique composer and to enjoy his creativity as it evolves.

Updated On: 8/22/07 at 12:45 PM

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 3:46pm

Sondheim, who I admire, is not the best at either, to quote him "Other people do it better" and that's entirely true. Cole Porter wrote better lyrics than he does, and Leonard Bernstein always wrote better music (and often better lyrics, listen to his Mass) than Sondheim.

Ultimately why Sondheim fails to be "the best" is because he is too clever, and tries to bring attention to his clever lyrics with (what he thinks) is clever-er music motifs and little flights of fancy, and playing with odd harmonics is so-over.

Seriously, in musical circles, Sondheim is really twenty years behind even now. Unfortunately, most other musical theater composers were 50-70 years behind the musical times themselves, which made Sondheim seem "new" but he was never musically "new" although he was "new" for musical theater.

That having been said, he's great, but his lyrics are better than his music, no doubt about it.

[JohnBoy2]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 4:11pm

For the most part, I hate his music, and find it doesn't stand on its own, outside the context of the show. So I'll say lyricist.

[chinto1984]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 4:17pm

I think lyricist only because Oscar Hammerstein II was a huge mentor. And he didn't get his chance to compose right away. His lyrics stand out and very artistic compared to other lyricist. He has said in interviews that he thought about writing mystery novels. For the sake of this thread, his writing seems to be stronger.

[chris d]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 4:30pm

definitely his lyrics. I'm constantly astonished by them, how meticulously perfect they are in terms of rhyme, and how effortless the words come together and almost completely lack contrivance. He's a true lyrical genius. His music (especially his orchestrations) is brilliant too, but depends a lot on what has already been written, which isn't to say it lacks originality, but it addresses a more familiar language. So, yes, lyrics.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 5:04pm

What do you mean by depends on what has already been written? Do you mean what has been written in the show? I am prepared to argue against that, and am also requesting to know who some of your favorite composers are to make comparisons :P

Fenchurch, Sondheim hasn't written a notable musical since the mid 90's and he's 76 years old. I'll forgive him for being 20 years behind current music. I don't think he would claim to be new. He freely admits that he is strongly influenced by his musical peers.

Yes, often Sondheim is musically clever but as often he can be moving. Either you like his musical vernacular or you don't, I suppose. Haven't you admitted that you used to be a big fan?

[chris d]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 6:06pm

what I was trying to say was that, musically, he addresses musical themes that have already been established. Often he transcends or redefines them (especially in Follies), but still remains within the Rodgers/Hammerstein/ Kern/ Styne/ Berlin tradition. That's just my opinion. I still think he's an amazing musical composer, I just think he's an even better lyricist.

[thesondhead]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 6:07pm

My problem with the complaint that Sondheim's music/lyrics are too clever and he's trying to draw attention to them is this:

That's just how he is. He writes like he does because, to him (and many others), that's what makes a song good - not a simple lyric and an even simpler melody that you've heard six thousand times before from the same composer. He's not "trying" to show you everything he puts into his music. If he was trying, why would The Sondheim Review need the "Biography of a Song" section? We would all already know everything he was doing. The fact that he takes time and uses his brain to write every song shows that he holds the utmost respect for his craft and does not want to disappoint. Yes, his music is very intellectual, but some of us long for theatre to be something more than a form of escapism. That's why we have television.

[antz]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 6:57pm

Best Sondheim Lyrics: "Shepherds pie peppered with actual shepherd..." (Sweeney) / "The concerts you enjoy together, Neighbors you annoy together, Children you destroy together ..." (Company) / "Or we'd be left bereft of F.D.R." (Assassins)

Best Music: "I Remember" (Evening Primrose)/ "Putting it Togehter" (SITPWG) / All of "Sweeney Todd"

[thesondhead]

Posted: 8/22/07 at 7:50pm

*Or we'd have been left bereft of FDR.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 12:51am

" He's not "trying" to show you everything he puts into his music. If he was trying, why would The Sondheim Review need the "Biography of a Song" section?"

The bio if a song section is there because he uses obdscure textual references often, another clue to his overcleverness.

Sorry, he';; never be as good as some of the others or as some of the newer ones will be (*cough GUETTEL cough*):

1: doesnt write his own orchestrations (the newer guys are realizing its the only way to get real musical respect (im sorry, but its true)

2: He's too busy waving his arms in the air shouting "Look how smart I am!"

I love him, and some of his music still moves me, but as far as craft goes, he'll be forgotten sooner than a lot of you think.

[Liverpool]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 3:06am

"He's too busy waving his arms in the air shouting "Look how smart I am!"


umm, really? yeah, not really, but good try.

[best12bars]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 9:52am

He's a good but uneven composer. (at his best, there isn't anything better... When he's off, it can be pretty god-awful and painful)

But he's a brilliant lyricist.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:06am

"umm, really? yeah, not really, but good try."

Good answer, very persuasive.

[misschung]

Posted: 8/23/07 at 11:10am

doesnt write his own orchestrations (the newer guys are realizing its the only way to get real musical respect (im sorry, but its true)

I was actually going to ask about this anyway, so I'm glad you brought it up. This is a really silly question, but it's been bothering me. Sondheim definitely doesn't write his own orchestrations? Or does he sort of think of a rough melody and then work with, for example, Tunick, to create the music? I am just wondering if anyone can elaborate on how he works with his musical directors, because on the PBS special, he described the opening melody of Sweeney and it seemed as though he had an idea of which direction he wanted it to go. But I wasn't sure if that was decided through collaboration first, or Sondheims original idea that was brought to the collaborative table.