Do you feel that Sondheim is a better composer or lyricist?- Page 2

[bjh2114]

Posted: 7/24/07 at 11:22pm

Definitely lyricist. His music is severely overrated.

[Footlooser]

Posted: 7/24/07 at 11:26pm

I honestly think that it depends on the show, For "Into the Woods" his music is great but the lyrics completly outshine there, but in "Sweeney Todd" the music is far superior to the lyrics, with the exception maybe of "A Little Priest"

[ljay889]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 12:08am

. His music is severely overrated.

- But Sondheim has a cult following. He's not mainstream. I can see calling Composers like Schwartz or Webber who have large followings (especially with mainstream theater goers) overrated.

[musical_devotee]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 12:57am

Definitely lyricist.

[bjh2114]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 1:06am

Ljay, aside from Wicked I would hardly call Scwartz "mainstream" either. Sondheim has written mainstream shows as well (Forum for instance). Just because Sondheim has a cult following doesn't mean he can't be overrated. There is no exemption there.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 2:05am

I wouldn't say "No two shows sound alike" - I'm listening to Bounce now and there are def. "musical themes" that have been used before. I still love the score, but certain parts of it sound like Into the Woods and Sunday.

Posted: 7/25/07 at 2:06am

I don't really relate to lyrics the way I relate directly and instantly to music--and as much as I complain about certain lyricists, if I like the score there's a lot of crap I can put up with but not vice versa. I knwo the old wisdom (which admittedly ahs been changing since the 80s) is he's a wonderful, flawless lyricist but a more arguable composer but for me the appeal in Sondheim's scores is at least 70% music--one reason that argument irks me so much.

I'm pretty sure Ivan knew WSS had music by Bernstein--he was pointing out that the music probably outshines the lyrics. To be fair a score liek Forum needs more witty/clever/immediately "brilliant' lyrics than a socre like WSS does where the emotion is carried in the music. Forum isn't an emotional show in that sense so hard to judge. Even ITW is at least half a farce so it's no big surprise that some would say its lyrics outshine the music--I think that's almost on purpose whereas Sweeney is very dependant on the music carrying over to the audience directly the emotions needed for the piece. That said I know *some* people (nto syaing me) think Woods is a bit too dense lyric wise--and a huge part of the score for me is its gorgeous chamber music feel (due in no small part to Tunick of course)

I do think acutally that one thign that shows his musical strength is how diverse and "of one piece" his scores are--while his lyrics are nealry always dead on to character, etc, his rhyme scehmes and other perosnal lyrical traits are much more apparant from score to score as being by the same guy.

Still it's so good that we don't have to choose

[Gypsy9]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 3:17pm

Re. the music and lyrics to WEST SIDE STORY, according to Steven Suskin's book "Opening Night on Broadway, 1943 to 1964": "In terms of the score, it has been rumored that while Leonard Bernstein was off trying to fix CANDIDE, lyricist Stephen Sondheim wrote some of the music himself. Bernstein's co-lyricist billing mysteriously disappeared from the credits during the tryout, presumably as a trade off...Whatever the case may be, the score is all of a piece--and it is all superb!"

Interesting! Any thoughts as to what music Sondheim may have contributed?

[LostLeander]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 3:27pm

I also heard that Bernstein wrote the lyrics to Tonight, and Somewhere.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sondheim wrote the music to Cool.

[WaltSummersPI]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 3:30pm

Lyrics, by a lot, a lot.

[madbrian]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 3:38pm

I'll go along with the majority and say he's a better lyricist, and by a wide margin.

[SueleenGay]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 3:49pm

When you look at the genius of Night Music it is harder to say. Imagine splitting the intricacies of Now/Soon/Later's lyrics and music into different parts and the whole number would unravel. Yes, individually both are great on their own but together they create magic.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 4:22pm

Definitely a better lyricist. His music is too clever for its own good and often is just not good at all.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 8:37pm

I find it *very* hard to believe that Sondheim wrote some of the music to WSS. He might have contributed a line, or gave Bernstein a suggestion, but Sondheim would have had to flat-out walked into Bernstein's brain to write one or two songs--that score is so completely united, with certain technical techniques like tritones unconsciously popping up--the whole score just screams Bernstein, one composer. There's clear connection to Candide.

And he *definitely* didn't write the music for "Cool." I believe "Cool" was among some of the first songs written. The Prologue was perhaps the first, and then the opening of Cool took its cue from the Jet whistle, and measure 36 of the prologue, and that's when Bernstein began to realize he's doing nothing but using tritones...I mean, you really can't credit Sondheim with any of the music unless you want to credit him with ALL of the music.

As for the topic at hand, I find an interesting pattern. Those who cite lyrics say other music composers are better (I, of course agree), while those who say music are just comparing Sondheim's music and lyrics. I too without a doubt would say lyrics. Sondheim's music is wonderful, of course, but IMO, not quite up to the level of the classical/symphonic Broadway composers Gershwin and Bernstein. In fact, in a book I would recommend to anyone with a deep understanding of music and music theory (otherwise you'll get a huge headache) is Joseph Swain's "Broadway Musicals." He musically analyzes some of the best shows in Broadway history, and I think the only 2 he doesn't find not one teeny, eency flaw MUSICALLY (not lyrics) is Porgy & Bess and West Side Story (possibly My Fair Lady). Even in Sweeney, which I think we all agree is Sondheim's greatest musical composition, Swain discusses an ingenius dual/melody that Sweeney has, but than at the very end of the show, when the dual melody has been building up and should be used the biggest, it's ignored. He admits its a teensy, nitpicky flaw, but still.

Is Sondheim one of the best music composers in Broadway history? Of course. Is he the best? No. Is he the best lyricist in Broadway history? I would say so.

One more thing...now, I'm not saying anyone has to agree with it, but ljay, you're crazy if you don't think it's possible to say Sondheim is overrated...the way he is worshipped in theater world, on the board, by critics...come on now. I'm not saying he *is* overrated, but that he's...highly rated enough to be able to be called overrated.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 8:44pm

And as for Sondheim's music in shows not sounding alike...

Take a listen to Someone is Waiting in Company. When Bobby sings "Jo-anne!" Then imagine adding an uh to the end--you get Johanna from Sweeney

Okay probably not the same, but my friend and I were proud when we found that out. I'm of course not serious, I agree his music for each show is unique, though there have been plenty of times that I've found a bit of a melody in one song from another..particularly between Night Music and Into the Woods for some reason...

Posted: 7/25/07 at 8:48pm

Back when the prologue was a song ("How long does it take to reach the moonerooney?") I hope the lyrics were Lenny's--they're awful.

I think Sondheims' musical contributions were tiny--he got One Hand One Heart changed so that it wasn't all long notes so it would be easier to write for. That's the major change I know of.

I dunno music is such a personal thing I think it's easier for some reason to judge lyrics in an impersonal way. For me no other Broadway composer has *musically* given me as much joy as Sondheim--and yeah that's a personal statement but it's also a true one--

Fen I actually think ahandful of his lyrics are too clever for his own good--not quite sure what pieces of music are.

And Sweeney isn't my fave or best Sondheim score musically--Passion or Sunday probably is for the record :P I think Sweeney, while a masterwork, is a bit too blindly worshipped (but again that's personal)

E

[ljay889]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 8:53pm

Of course some of his music is going to sound familiar. But he doesn't blatantly recycle his melodies like Schwartz or Webber famously do.

Each Sondheim score has a different theme, style, and feeling. That was my point.
Updated On: 7/25/07 at 08:53 PM

[uhkthxbye2]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 9:29pm

I agree. I remember listening to Children of Eden (Schwartz) and scratching my head in confusion because I heard a riff that I could've sworn was in Wicked too.

Another vote for lyricist. Although I love his music, it definitely takes some getting used to. His lyrics, though ... My God.

"And any I.O.U. I owe, you owe." 'Nuff said.

[Live_Laugh_Perform]

Posted: 7/25/07 at 9:36pm

I love how his lyrics deeply motivate and set a sense of passion through the piece.....I also appreciate how entrancing the music is and although very difficult to sing at times, adds to the composition. Overall I would have to say that :He's Sondheim for crying out loud; he's basically good at everything!

[Timmer]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 11:41am

Lyricist. Some of his more recent music has gotten a certain sameness to it. It's like he's writing "Another Hundred People" over and over and over.

[ashbash1990]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 2:49pm

I feel that his music and lyrics fit together so well, that neither would be as good without the other... but his lyrics are VERY clever...

[DMsquared2]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 3:38pm

I agree with ashbash1990. His music wouldn't be as good without his lyrics and his lyrics wouldn't be as good without his music.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 5:04pm

I can't seperate one from the other but I'd rather listen to symphonic versions of his songs than sit with a book of his lyrics. Lyrics are necessarily spare--whereas his music is lush, dense, articulate, and complex. Of course, the genius of a Sondheim lyric is that it can mean so much.

I believe Bernstein maintained a love affair with tritones all his career. I also think some of West Side Story (such as One Hand...) was recycled from Candide, but I could be wrong. Sondheim has said that he contributed a lot to "Something's Coming". I imagine he also contributed a lot to Officer Krupke and the Tonight quartet.

WickedrentQ, I've read that book. I found it a little pompous, but interesting. He doesn't say that the culmination of the motifs is absent. It's there but that the meaning is vague--whether his grief is for his justice or his wife. This is kind of a stupid statement since clearly he grieves because his pursuit of justice has cost him the last thing he expected to lose--his wife.

The whole segment of Sondheim is a bit thoughtless, merely parroting the usual complaints (If one more person tells me Sondheim can't write melody I'll bite them).

Is Sondheim too brainy? I don't know but I'll admit that sometimes I find Bernstein way too flowery, but I still like him.

[broadwaybaby086]

Posted: 7/26/07 at 5:18pm

Lyrics. While his melodies, harmonies, chord progressions, etc. are brilliant, no doubt, some of his pieces definitely sound the same to me. I often hear similarities between pieces, in motives or just simply in those lush harmonies for which he is known. I say lyrics almost simply because from project to project, they will definitely always be new and different.

Posted: 7/26/07 at 6:09pm

Ronin Officer Krupke's music existed almost completely in early drafts of Candide (at first this seemed odd to me till I listened to it with no notice of the lyrics and realized it is one of the most "operetta" sounding pieces in WSS. I believe One Hand One Heart (without the Sondheim changed notes I guess). I think there was a Candide song that was written for WSS but am blanking...

I used to be pretty anal about the fact that if a composer writes a melody for one show it shouldn't end up for another show, as, as Sondheim often says, the music, not just the lyrics have to be written for character, plot, etc. Now I'm a lot less hung up on that--I guess partly becasue I realize so many of my fave composers--from Bernstein on have done just this and it's not just an ALWebber thing (although he, along with Steinman who's more in the pop world anyway, are most guilty it seems). But I still maintain that Sondheim's scores perhaps have the most individual "sound" for each show (for the most part) even if I admit you can usually tell, by music alone, when it's Sondheim.

I do think he's written his best lyrics overall for the shows he did music for as well--which surely means something.