Do you feel that Sondheim is a better composer or lyricist? — Page 2

I honestly think that it depends on the show, For "Into the Woods" his music is great but the lyrics completly outshine there, but in "Sweeney Todd" the music is far superior to the lyrics, with the exception maybe of "A Little Priest"

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Definitely lyricist.

I wouldn't say "No two shows sound alike" - I'm listening to Bounce now and there are def. "musical themes" that have been used before. I still love the score, but certain parts of it sound like Into the Woods and Sunday.

Re. the music and lyrics to WEST SIDE STORY, according to Steven Suskin's book "Opening Night on Broadway, 1943 to 1964": "In terms of the score, it has been rumored that while Leonard Bernstein was off trying to fix CANDIDE, lyricist Stephen Sondheim wrote some of the music himself. Bernstein's co-lyricist billing mysteriously disappeared from the credits during the tryout, presumably as a trade off...Whatever the case may be, the score is all of a piece--and it is all superb!"

Interesting! Any thoughts as to what music Sondheim may have contributed?

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Lyrics, by a lot, a lot.

When you look at the genius of Night Music it is harder to say. Imagine splitting the intricacies of Now/Soon/Later's lyrics and music into different parts and the whole number would unravel. Yes, individually both are great on their own but together they create magic.

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I find it *very* hard to believe that Sondheim wrote some of the music to WSS. He might have contributed a line, or gave Bernstein a suggestion, but Sondheim would have had to flat-out walked into Bernstein's brain to write one or two songs--that score is so completely united, with certain technical techniques like tritones unconsciously popping up--the whole score just screams Bernstein, one composer. There's clear connection to Candide.

And he *definitely* didn't write the music for "Cool." I believe "Cool" was among some of the first songs written. The Prologue was perhaps the first, and then the opening of Cool took its cue from the Jet whistle, and measure 36 of the prologue, and that's when Bernstein began to realize he's doing nothing but using tritones...I mean, you really can't credit Sondheim with any of the music unless you want to credit him with ALL of the music.

As for the topic at hand, I find an interesting pattern. Those who cite lyrics say other music composers are better (I, of course agree), while those who say music are just comparing Sondheim's music and lyrics. I too without a doubt would say lyrics. Sondheim's music is wonderful, of course, but IMO, not quite up to the level of the classical/symphonic Broadway composers Gershwin and Bernstein. In fact, in a book I would recommend to anyone with a deep understanding of music and music theory (otherwise you'll get a huge headache) is Joseph Swain's "Broadway Musicals." He musically analyzes some of the best shows in Broadway history, and I think the only 2 he doesn't find not one teeny, eency flaw MUSICALLY (not lyrics) is Porgy & Bess and West Side Story (possibly My Fair Lady). Even in Sweeney, which I think we all agree is Sondheim's greatest musical composition, Swain discusses an ingenius dual/melody that Sweeney has, but than at the very end of the show, when the dual melody has been building up and should be used the biggest, it's ignored. He admits its a teensy, nitpicky flaw, but still.

Is Sondheim one of the best music composers in Broadway history? Of course. Is he the best? No. Is he the best lyricist in Broadway history? I would say so.

One more thing...now, I'm not saying anyone has to agree with it, but ljay, you're crazy if you don't think it's possible to say Sondheim is overrated...the way he is worshipped in theater world, on the board, by critics...come on now. I'm not saying he *is* overrated, but that he's...highly rated enough to be able to be called overrated.

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Back when the prologue was a song ("How long does it take to reach the moonerooney?") I hope the lyrics were Lenny's--they're awful.

I think Sondheims' musical contributions were tiny--he got One Hand One Heart changed so that it wasn't all long notes so it would be easier to write for. That's the major change I know of.

I dunno music is such a personal thing I think it's easier for some reason to judge lyrics in an impersonal way. For me no other Broadway composer has *musically* given me as much joy as Sondheim--and yeah that's a personal statement but it's also a true one--

Fen I actually think ahandful of his lyrics are too clever for his own good--not quite sure what pieces of music are.

And Sweeney isn't my fave or best Sondheim score musically--Passion or Sunday probably is for the record :P I think Sweeney, while a masterwork, is a bit too blindly worshipped (but again that's personal)

E

I agree. I remember listening to Children of Eden (Schwartz) and scratching my head in confusion because I heard a riff that I could've sworn was in Wicked too.

Another vote for lyricist. Although I love his music, it definitely takes some getting used to. His lyrics, though ... My God.

"And any I.O.U. I owe, you owe." 'Nuff said.

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Lyricist. Some of his more recent music has gotten a certain sameness to it. It's like he's writing "Another Hundred People" over and over and over.

I agree with ashbash1990. His music wouldn't be as good without his lyrics and his lyrics wouldn't be as good without his music.

Lyrics. While his melodies, harmonies, chord progressions, etc. are brilliant, no doubt, some of his pieces definitely sound the same to me. I often hear similarities between pieces, in motives or just simply in those lush harmonies for which he is known. I say lyrics almost simply because from project to project, they will definitely always be new and different.

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