Does Into the woods Jr do justice to the original? - Page 2

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:01pm

"Act 1 only makes sense when you see act 2."

That is absolutely, categorically, not true. In fact, if you think that's true, I question whether or not you're actually mature enough to understand the full show in the first place.

I actually feel like if I were a little kid who saw the Jr version and then many years later as a young adult saw the full show, I would *really* feel as if I knew things then, many beautiful things that I hadn't thought to explore. It really is a privilege of adulthood to grow up and hear the rest of the story.

I think it's a perfectly fine idea and complaining about the financials? Kids, that's showbiz.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:06pm

"The reason is more so because having children learn and perform a full length musical is near impossible."

So then why do a show like into the woods where its only the first half? Not even All of the first half actually, im pretty sure they cut a lot of material from act 1 also. If kids can't do a full musical then do something like school house rock jr or Annie jr but why sacrifice the intelligence full message of into the woods? No other junior show cuts off half of it.

"I think Sondheim fans are a little too rabid and out of touch sometimes, as this thread has illustrated."

That's an overstatement. If you want to call me an ITW fan then that thats fine but i really don't care that much for Sondheim except for a few of his shows. I just think its sorta ridiculous to do half of the show and barely touch on the meaning of why you are doing that show. What message are you trying to send with just act 1? What is the important theme you find out in act one? I don't think it makes me out of touch to wonder if the sanctity of a beautiful and perfect show is being dragged through the mud all in the name of MONEY

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:13pm

"No other junior show cuts off half of it. "

Seeing as MTI edits the shows to run about 60 minutes in their Jr. collection then yes, most of the shows in the collection DO have half of the show cut, since a lot of the shows in it are shows that run anywhere from two to three hours in their full length versions.

And if you think that people are going to see their kids' middle school shows looking for important themes and life-changing messages then yes, I would indeed call you out of touch.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:14pm

"That is absolutely, categorically, not true. In fact, if you think that's true, I question whether or not you're actually mature enough to understand the full show in the first place."

Act one is only good cause it sets up how important everything is for act 2. Act one is like building the titanic and then act 2 is like watching it sink. Into the woods would not be the amazing musical it is today without act 2. If you don't do act 2 then you are missing out on the major theme of why ITW is universally important and is still so relevant today. Sure you can end it at act 1 and you would have a finished musical but then you miss out on the full potential of the characters in the show.

"I would *really* feel as if I knew things then, many beautiful things that I hadn't thought to explore. It really is a privilege of adulthood to grow up and hear the rest of the story. "

Thats actually kinda my theory on why Sondheim did the junior version the way he did.

[John Adams]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:16pm

Nice post, broadway guy!! Well done, you.

My first reaction was similar to Namo's. If I consider that the Jr. versions are created mostly for grade school and middle school-aged performers, I think that they would be missing the significance of Act II even if it were included. Excluding Act II doesn't do any harm at that age level. If anything, it might whet the appetite to revisit the show with more maturity.

Where did you find the notion that the Witch and Rapunzel might have an incestuous relationship, though? What was the source? I'm kinda balking at that...

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:19pm

"Seeing as MTI edits the shows to run about 60 minutes in their Jr. collection then yes, most of the shows in the collection DO have half of the show cut, since a lot of the shows in it are shows that run anywhere from two to three hours in their full length versions."

But no other shows besides ITW junior cuts act 2 off completely. Yes,BROADWAY junior edits their shows to make it shorter but each one BESIDES ITW has an act 2 ending.


"And if you think that people are going to see their kids' middle school shows looking for important themes and life-changing messages then yes, I would indeed call you out of touch."

I already said they wouldn't in my original OP. But even if they didn't it doesn't mean they should be denied the chance. You can't look for most of the important themes if you are missing half the book.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:24pm

"Act one is only good cause it sets up how important everything is for act 2."

AGAIN. That is simply not true. Are you saying act one is BAD but that it is redeemed by act two? I should hope you aren't. Every other analogy you make after that assertion may or may not be true, but that's not the point you or I are making. You said act one makes no sense. That's not true. You said act one is only good if there's an act two. That too is not true.

It is simply not true.

Nowhere anywhere in the creation of Into the Woods Jr is anybody saying, "It's the complete experience, only shorter." Anywhere, ever.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:25pm

"Nice post, broadway guy!! Well done, you."

Thanks John Adams :) I had hoped you would like it :)

"Where did you find the notion that the Witch and Rapunzel might have an incestuous relationship, though? What was the source? I'm kinda balking at that..."

Incest never occurred to me until i saw a thread about it on here awhile ago. It was big discussion and debate about it i think? So i guess my source would be This site?. I actually just tried googling it but all i came up with were porn sites "Mommy does me in the woods" and stuff like that. I will go through the archives and see if i can pull it up.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:27pm

I disagree, Gaveston- for me, Act II always clipped along, even during its ballad-heavy final third- which I never minded, as the show and characters had earned those ballads.

I believe you, Kad. But I've seen the show in pre-Broadway workshop, Broadway, National Tour, stock and college productions, and each and every audience began to grow restless during "Last Midnight" and continued shuffling (or going to the restroom) through "No More" and "No One Is Alone". I think it's a matter of physiology; it's just too late in a long evening for so many ballads in a row.

And it doesn't help that Sondheim stops writing lyrics in visual images ("Giants in the Sky", "Agony", etc.) and starts writing in abstract terms, which are harder to follow.

broadway guy, I'd probably cut "No More", but I haven't studied the script lately. I'm not a big fan of "No One Is Alone", but I suppose one has to end the show somehow. I've just always found late-Act II indulgent in a way that Prince wouldn't have abided. Don't get me wrong: I still love the show and find it brilliant. It just gets exhausting after 2 and 1/2 hours.

Updated On: 6/3/13 at 10:27 PM

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:30pm

Gaveston, I think I disagree with every single word in that post. Including "and" & "the".

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:33pm

broadway guy, I too remember the "incest thread". The impression (which I admit has left me wonderning) comes from the Witch's lyric, "But I am old and ugly/I embarrass you."

It strikes some of us as a strange thing to say to your child. Parents are SUPPOSED to be "old and ugly", why would it be embarrassing? But personally I just took it as another emotional level; I didn't imagine the two women literally going at it in the tower.

(As I recall, however, the "lesbian subtext" seemed even stronger when Ellen Foley played the Witch in the pre-Broadway workshop, probably because they part was written and played somewhat butcher before Peters took over.)

Updated On: 6/3/13 at 10:33 PM

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:35pm

"You said act one makes no sense. That's not true."

Let me re do that statement. Act one makes sense cause all it really is is your standard run of the mill fairy tale. Sure it makes sense but there isn't much depth to it. Act 2 is where you see why act 1 is set up the way it is. You are missing a crucial part of the theme of INTO THE WOODS without act 2. Act one makes sense and it is good without act2 but it can't stand alone as a masterpiece without its second half.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:36pm

Gaveston, I think I disagree with every single word in that post. Including "and" & "the".

Well, I know what I've witnessed in terms of audience behavior. Isn't that supposed to be why workshops and previews are done, because the behavior of spectators is such a good guide to how the show is perceived?

I realize that plenty of Sondheim fans will disagree; but I am talking about general audience reactions.

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:41pm

Well said, broadway guy, and I wholeheartedly agree!

But if we're talking 11 and 12-year-olds, I don't see the harm in letting them do just the "fairy tale" half of the show. It's still better material than most children's theater.

[best12bars]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:43pm

Gav, you'll probably be happy with the movie adaptation, then.

It was posted on here that the screenplay cuts the song "No More."

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:52pm

Thanks Gaveston. Yeah i suppose you are right there really is no harm and its better than doing something out of a pioneer drama catalog i guess but I also wonder if the music is too challenging for the middle schoolers also? Isn't Sondheim suppose to be really hard to follow in terms of lyrics and music etc etc. I have seen one into the woods jr and i thought the kids did a great job with the music and it didn't seem like they were struggling at all with it which is sorta odd to me but i guess thats why they call it the junior version cause they make edits to the challenge of the score. I also wonder how many schools a year actually do this show? How many middle schools actually put on a Sondheim show? I can't picture a middle school picking Sondheim over something a bit more easier and "fun" like SUESSICAL or BEAUY AND THE BEAST. Plus, into the woods is a small cast for a middle school so i find it odd that middle schools would be quick to jump its bones

[GavestonPS]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 10:55pm

Thanks for the update, Best12. We'll see.

I shouldn't have hazarded a guess on the spot. As soon as I posted I realized I'd probably miss "No More". We have enough investment in the Baker and his Wife that we probably need a significant response after the Wife's death.

So I'll officially admit I don't know what to do with Act II. (Except to say I agree that when performed for adults, Act II is the "point" of the show.)

-----

broadway guy, I don't have enough experience with middle school kids to opine on their musical ability. Hell, I haven't directed HIGH school kids for 40 years!



Updated On: 6/3/13 at 10:55 PM

[CurtainPullDowner]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:02pm

The "entire" score of this show is rather difficult to learn.
The professional company of last Summer's Park proved that point.
I'd rather see s good version of Act 1 than a crummy version of both Acts.
I commend any school that tackles this work.

[broadwaydevil]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:13pm

Broadwayguy, you had a good point muddled somewhere in this thread but it's been buried in all the backtracking, contradictions and side comments.

Into the Woods Jr. is a money maker for Sondheim. Hence, he did it. He may also think it a good idea that young people (middle school and younger) can be introduced to and perhaps become lifelong fans of his work and musical theatre.

I think everyone agrees you're not getting the full show or message by doing just the first act, but no one has ever argued one does (including Sondheim as far as I know.) Again, if you're going to see middle schoolers and are expecting a well-performed, coherent three hour production of a complex work, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

Regarding the end of Act 2, I actually find it works beautifully. And will concur with your change in heart Gaveston as I believe "No More" is one of the best songs of the score. It's also the only time the mysterious man/narrator (depending on the version of the script) gets to sing with his son and it's a real climax. I think if anything "No One is Alone" could be cut but that's probably because I've heard it far too many times in bad auditions.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:18pm

better than doing something out of a pioneer drama catalog i guess but I also wonder if the music is too challenging for the middle schoolers also?

So, basically, what you're demonstrating is that you are absolutely *determined* to find something, anything to fret about with "Into the Woods, Jr".

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:25pm

I'm pretty sure the music is simplified anyway. Also, Jesus Christ, this thread.

[Marianne2]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:34pm

This version is meant for children, what do you expect or want? And I disagree about act 1. I think it works by itself as a show for children. Would I be interested in it myself? No, but that's because I don't have kids and am not the target audience for it. And scarily, there were people at Shakespeare in the Park last year who didn't know at first that act 1 was not the end.

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:40pm

There have ALWAYS been people who didn't know there was an act two in Into the Woods. And yes, Jesus Christ this thread.

[broadway guy]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:41pm

"So, basically, what you're demonstrating is that you are absolutely *determined* to find something, anything to fret about with "Into the Woods, Jr"."

Don't put words in my mouth. Im just analyzing the interesting idea of middle schoolers doing a Sondheim show. If the kids have fun with it and are able to do the score then let em do it, who are they hurting? Im just curious as to why Sondheim let it be structured this way. Was he worried about people not seeing the message of the show? Did he do it just for the money? Who knows but i think its a fascinating topic.

Updated On: 6/3/13 at 11:41 PM

[FindingNamo]

Posted: 6/3/13 at 11:46pm

I am reacting to the words you are posting. You may think it's a fascinating topic to analyze now, but your original posts expressed what seemed to be anger that it was happening at all.