Grey Gardens vs. Caroline, or Change.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:59am

I know this may sound odd, but hear me out.

I went to see "Grey Gardens" against last night, and I still have huge problems with it. It's better, it's grown, and yet...

To me, it seems like a pointless show.

Ebersole is terrific. As is a bunch of the writing.

Believe me, I would rather see "Grey Gardens" six million times than sit through "Tarzan" once.

There is some terrific writing in "Grey Gardens." "A Revolutionary Outfit for Today" is a stunning bit of writing.

And yet... and yet. Here's my problem. There is nothing about the musical that illuminates the story. The story, if you think about it, doesn't lend itself to the process of musicalization.

And this kind of musical theatre never makes money. I hate that it doesn't. But I hate even more that people who didn't see "Caroline, or Change," or "See What I Wanna See," think that "Grey Gardens" is their equal. Because it is not.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:06am

[miss pennywise]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:10am

I am glad you are more open-minded and less hostie in your critcism of Grey Gardens. Oddly, I have had a similar experience.

I did not like the Off-Broadway production; in fact, I almost left at intermission. But when I saw it last weekend, I fell in love with it. That's not to say it's perfect. There are some things I feel should be cut, replaced or returned. But overall, I adored it and have tickets to see it again on November 11.

I don't think it has to be "equals" of Caroline or See. I don't think anything has to be categorized as "equal" to anything else. What difference does that make?

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:14am

Sorry for beating the dead horse, JRB.

I just saw it again last night, and had new ideas. I didn't mean to be repetitive, I just wanted to weigh in.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:51am

I apologize. I always welcome an intelligent discussion.

I will say that I hold COC as one of the greatest musicals ever written. it burns when people try to trash it. but we have to accept that some people just didn't like it and if asked to compare it to gg, they would say that gg is better. well gg is more user friendly. or perhaps those characters and that story hit them more profoundly. and in the same breath, I accept that you don't care for gg all that much.

I think COC is a greater musical, but I think COC is greater than many great musicals. that shouldn't take anything away from good or great musicals. I don't see the need to have a contest. I enjoyed both shows. I hope both have as much success as possible on Broadway and in their future as part of the musical theatre canon.

I think gg is beautifully written--both hilarious and tragic with songs I love--some of which are instant classics. the performances are tremendous. and the characters and their story touch me deeply. it is still in previews--changes are being made everyday.

it isn't your cup of tea. fair enough.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 10:24am

I don't see how Caroline can even be compared to Grey Gardens.

They are two completely different shows.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 10:43am

Other than COC and GG both being Broadway musicals, I don't think they have anything in common whatsoever. Why do people compare those two particular shows?

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:16pm

In previous threads, the comparison has been made that GG will be this year's COC--the brilliant, "artsy" musical that ends up flopping because tourists won't see it. This has spurned great debate.

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:29pm

I have yet to see Grey Gardens. A friend saw it while in New York on Tuesday and came back to Denver raving about it. And he brought up COC. He said that, yes, they are both different musicals and that COC took musical theatre in another direction and GG is taking it in even another. He thinks they are both equally brilliant but in different ways.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:37pm

I should add--the argument was also over whether or not GG would run until the Tonys, whether or not the show could be marketed more accessibly than COC and whether or not it deserved to be on Broadway when other shows that were allegedly better never did.

I'm glad to hear so many raves about the show.

[ShuQ]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:39pm

I am glad to know that I am not alone. When I saw Grey Gardens at Horizons, I was confused by its lack of a point or a purpose. I, also, thought Ebersole was brilliant and thought there were some good moments, but overall I left feeling kind of empty. I hope to catch it again on Broadway, but I still couldn't tell you what it was about or what the purpose was.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:42pm

Purpose? What's the purpose of

Wicked
Rent
A Chorus Line
The Music Man
Oklahoma!
Into the Woods
etc.

I guess I don't understand this concept of "purpose". Theatre is about telling stories. GG is a great story--and even wilder in that it is a true story.

[Nick Plasia]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:50pm

Indeed. I mean, stripped of its pretentious allegorical
tropes, CAROLINE OR CHANGE is about whether or not a maid
is going to keep the spare change she finds in a pair of
pants. Now THAT's a fascinating story with a PURPOSE!

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 12:57pm

And as I have said to others, if you think that COC was merely about pocket change (even removing "allegorical
tropes"), you are deaf, dumb, and blind!! And just plain ignant!

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:00pm

and that COC took musical theatre in another direction

How did COC take musicals in a new direction?

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:16pm

"I mean, stripped of its pretentious allegorical
tropes, CAROLINE OR CHANGE is about whether or not a maid
is going to keep the spare change she finds in a pair of
pants."

So, I take you it never actually saw the show? Or listened to the lyrics. Or actually know anything about it other than the spare change bit.

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:28pm

Ciaron - in my opinion and others I have talked to, it was not your conventional musical and the score was so different/eclectic.

[Ciaron McCarthy]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:29pm

"Ciaron - in my opinion and others I have talked to, it was not your conventional musical and the score was so different/eclectic."

Saw the show a bunch of times. Never got the feeling it changed theater. I think it is a very conventional piece. Follows the same formula as most every other musical. I do love it though.

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 1:34pm

I did not say it "changed" theatre, just took it in a new direction.

[Corine2]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:51pm

I loved both shows. I can't wait to see the Broadway version of Grey Gardens. Christine Ebersole's performance was riveting.
I adored every single heart wrenching second.
I also loved Caroline or Change and preferred the Off Broadway version at the Public Theater. Pinkins gave the same heart wrenching portrayal and I found the music gorgeous.
Some people prefer shows with no substance. I loved both of these shows.
Most tourists prefer glitzy musicals like Jersey Boys. They are very entertaining and not as thought provoking. I personally look at each show for what it is worth and some days I want a show that makes me think. Other days I just want to be entertained.
Some of my friends only want to see shows that are glitzy, sparkly extravaganzas.
It is like comparing Curse of the Starving Class to Mamma Mia.
You just can't compare them.
Both are shows I liked for different reasons.
PS I saw a sweet thought provoking show at the 59 east 59 theater called Southern Comforts and highly recommend it.
It has heart and is done well.
Updated On: 10/19/06 at 02:51 PM

[uncageg]

Posted: 10/19/06 at 2:57pm

I am actually thinking of flying into New York for a long weekend just so I can see Grey Gardens. Can't decide if I want to buy the CD before seeing it. I am on my way to Virgin Records to pick a few things up and I feel I will be tempted to get the CD.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 10/20/06 at 5:23pm

"Purpose? What's the purpose of

Wicked
Rent
A Chorus Line
The Music Man
Oklahoma!
Into the Woods"

Good question, JRB, let me attempt to answer it. First of all I think "purpose" is the wrong word. I think that "point" makes more sense.

The point of "Wicked" is that it doesn't matter what you look like, it's more important to be internally "good" than "nice.

The point of "Rent" is to show that people who are dying of AIDS are people too.

The point of "A Chorus Line" is to show that while celebrity is nice, the path getting there is ruthless, and dehumanizing.

The point of "The Music Man" is that you need to be careful of who you trust.

The point of "Oklahoma" is that America is a nation worth building.

And the points of "Into the Woods" are myriad as well as very self-evident, and they include "be careful of what you say, children may listen" and that fact that "happily ever after" isn't necessarily so.

What is the point of "Grey Gardens"? That if you're not careful, you may get raccoons in your attic? That your mother may betray you? That being rich is not a guarantee of happiness?

Compared to the others, it seems piffling to me. But again, that's just me, and I'm just saying.

[Jane2]

Posted: 10/20/06 at 5:48pm

I'm weighing in to say that I don't mind if there's a "point" or something profound in the story of a play or show or not. If I'm entertained and taken somewhere else, that's my criteria.

[VeuveClicquot]

Posted: 10/20/06 at 5:57pm

"I'm weighing in to say that I don't mind if there's a "point" or something profound in the story of a play or show or not. If I'm entertained and taken somewhere else, that's my criteria."

Of course, Jane. The difficulty here, for me, is that the shows that don't "have a point" and are wildly entertaining (i.e., "42nd Street," or "Millie,") need to have that. They need to be wildly entertaining.

My problem is this: I love entertainment for entertainment's sake, as long as it knows what it is.

I think "Grey Gardens" wants to be thought-provoking. I'm just not sure what thoughts it is trying to provoke.

If it wants to simply be entertaining, it's failing dismally. If it wants to be thought-provoking musical theatre, it's failing dismally.

Again, only my opinion. I'm just saying.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 10/20/06 at 6:03pm

I don't think you mean point at all. you mean moral and that is an awfully trite expectation--especially when good theatre should ask questions, not provide the answers. and you ask questions by simply presenting the story.

I will tell you what is compelling about gg. two women who had everything lost everything by the unfair double standards of the men in their lives but also and more pointedly in their own inadequecies to overcome those defeats. edith was so full of herself that she destroyed nearly everything she touched. and these women slowly evolved from a world of high society to squalor--each of them never living out their dreams and thinking they can have their dreams come true simply by wanting them to come true. their sad, codependent, dysfunctional relationship became their undoing and their need to survive. it's all about independence, strength, humility, resilience, and fighting for what you want in life. it's a cautionary tale indeed.

and the fact that these are the relatives of jackie o makes it's all the more juicy.

now, you don't have to agree with me. you don't have to like the musical. there isn't a single musical or play in history that was liked by everyone. in fact, every single one of them had at least one person who thought that play or musical was absolute crap and at least one person who thought it was the second coming of Christ.

think what you will about it, but I do wish you would stop harping on it. (and this is the third or fourth thread where you have done so).