How was Tale Today?- Page 4

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 1:43pm

Jill,

I am so pleased to have this discussion...

One of the criticisms I had regarding the opening, but failed to offer in my earlier post has little to do with your score and all to do with the design and staging. I loved the title screen and I didn't mind the prologue. In fact, it forced me to immediately focus on entering your world. The Way It Ought to Be, appropriately is an ensemble number which I believe is the best choice. However, when it arrives one of the large moving scaffold units is configured to be downstage left taking up almost half of the stage. Numbers like, The Way It Ought to Be, usually require the full stage for full impact. I felt here was the "opening number" and it was hindered - crimped - by the staging and the design. (Having typed this, I adore Tony Walton and I thought the designs for A Tale of Two Cities excellent.)

Regarding the music of The Way It Ought to Be, I do think it could have been musically stronger, more developed. Perhaps, just longer. Read on...

I am so pleased that you wrote and included words like "fuzzy", "unformed" "hook", etc. You have given me the vocabulary to proceed. I agree with you regarding everything you wrote about the "memorability" factor. I was not looking for something to hum upon exiting the theater. Your understanding of this is exact and we are in agreement. (I particularly appreciate the comments regarding Sondheim.)

I truly do hope to listen to the original cast of A Tale of Two Cities again. I haven't iTuned the concept recording as I'm hoping for an Original Cast, but after our discussion, I think perhaps both versions are destined for my collection. I promise to listen to, You'll Never Be Alone, after I finish this post.

I have just checked iTunes and the concept recording has, You'll Never Be Alone, at 2:30. Perhaps, the reason why some of the earlier songs seemed less focused is that they don't repeat their "lyrical hooks". (Please remember that I've heard your score only once and will be far more able to comment after repeat listening. Also remember, that most audience members will make their initial impressions based on only one listening.)

As for the Les Miserable comparison. Don't let it get to you at all. Obviously, there are going to be comparisons, but A Tale of Two Cities definitely has it's own identity. It's structure alone is quite different. Your piece is far more traditional in form and I thought that it was in many ways more accessible. There are some melodies in Les Miserable that are haunting, but I think your comments regarding repetition might be an answer for future productions of A Tale of Two Cities.

I am so pleased that you wrote A Tale of Two Cities from your heart and not some desire for "commercial" value. This did come through and it was one of the stronger points of the show. In fact, I think this, more than anything else, is what made A Tale of Two Cities stick with me. Trust me when I wrote / write that I have spent a lot of thought as to why A Tale of Two Cities did and didn't work for me. (You may laugh, but I have kept the playbill in my bathroom and I find myself reading it when using the john. Probably tmi!)

Your comments about Passion (which I love), remind me of a similar Sondheim experience: Children Will Listen from Into the Woods. Here was a lyrical hook that when I first heard it in the theater I was beyond captivated. I was haunted by those few strands and found myself almost angry that Sondheim didn't finish the song until years later at the request of Barbra Streisand. Interestingly enough, I don't love the additional music he wrote for her and still feel that Children Will Listen hasn't been fully realized.

So, with the possibility of future productions (tour), how do you - or even do you - revise A Tale of Two Cities? I am sure that you are bombarded with more conflicting comments than are helpful. With this in mind, I won't "redirect" your piece, but I do wish to end this post on a very positive note:

Something we haven't written about, but I do want to comment on: the book. I thought the balance between words and songs excellent and I thought your characters words intelligent. Lyrics included.

And, I want to thank you for this very intelligent dialogue. Now, I'm off to download the concept recording to understand more why your baby has so moved so many people.

With great respect,
Scott
Updated On: 11/16/08 at 01:43 PM

[madscientist]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 1:50pm

I'm glad to hear that there may be a cast recording, I have the concept recording, but it's just not the same. I really love the music! It must have been something very difficult to put together, but I'm very happy I got to see it a few times. I agree with wanting the show to stay open long enough to share with others, I did plan on bringing some of my friends to see it before the sudden closing announcement. At that point, my main concern was getting a ticket for myself as opposed to organizing a get together.

About the audience being wild, I also agree, but that seems to be the way Broadway shows are these days. I'm afraid eventually it'll get to be like a sporting event, I wouldn't have been surprised if people started a "We want Sydney" chant. I know(or at least hope) it will never get that bad, but there have been times I've been in theaters and I half expect something like that to happen.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 3:41pm

<< While I loved the show in its entirety and was going weekly while it was open, I must make note to Jill (and how lucky we are to have her on the boards posting about her show!) that the reason I kept coming back to the show was the score. I thought it was haunting and special >>

Totally agree, and I feel totally blessed that Jill is taking the time to post on the boards. I totally disagree with anyone that says this show is a retread of "Les Mis"- That is simply taking the easy way out (which is what the critics did, in my opinion).

I also felt that the score was beautiful, touching, and haughting, and the cast sang the heck out of it !

At the time the show was open, "I Can't Recall" was probably the best number currently on Broadway. (at least by a male lead-again, just my opinion) - If anyone male on Broadway has a better voice than Barbour, would love to hear it !

The costumes were excellent. Loved the set.

Natalie Toro showed off amazing chops on "Out of Sight, Out of Mind"-

I just think there were too many positive aspects of the show to get so critically panned the way it did.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 3:58pm

"I would have loved to challenge them to name any new show they went into where they were not familiar with the score already and left humming anything!"

Billy Elliot

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 4:22pm

<< "I would have loved to challenge them to name any new show they went into where they were not familiar with the score already and left humming anything!"

Billy Elliot

>>

While I love "Billy Elliot" to death, the score is actually my least favorite part of the show. If any song sticks in my head (now...not after leaving the theatre) it's, "Solidarity".

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 5:01pm

Ah, Yankee Fan, I can ALWAYS count on you!

But I didn't know you were a critic! Are you? (I mean one who gets paid to give their opinion I believe what I said is that I would like to challenge the reviewers who said there was nothing memorable in my score to name a new show from which they emerged humming anything. To which you piped in with "Billy Elliot". But for argument's sake - let's pretend you're a critic for a moment. In excerpting my quote, you conveniently left out my next sentence which was "unless it's something very short, "hooky" in the pop vein and repetitive." Maybe you will acknowledge that the score of "Billy Elliot" probably falls into that category?

Either way, most of the reviews of BE, positive as they were, tend to mention the music almost as an afterthought. I believe the most Brantley said was that it had a lot of energy! I don't recall him mentioning that anything was musically memorable. Actually, I don't really recall a lot of critics falling over themselves about the greatness of the music or the lyrics. Maybe if the music hadn't been by Sir Elton John they might not have mentioned it at all. It's even possible that if it hadn't been by Sir Elton that they might have treated it harshly and with derision and scorn. Sometimes perception can color a person's reality

I just noticed an earlier post of yours on this thread where you tossed off another one of those mindless "les miz re-tread" comments about my show? So I strolled over to the Itunes store to listen to a few excerpts from Billy Elliot. And the little bit of "the Letter" i just heard sounds exactly like "but the tigers come at night, with their voices calm as thunder" from Les Miz. Maybe that's why you walked out of Billy Elliot humming the songs ))

In closing (for now) I wish you would tell me why you are so fascinated with our show - since you don't like it but you've been following us with snarky contempt for the longest time - well prior to ever seeing it. And pray tell, what were you doing at the stage door at our closing night last Sunday? Just happened to be strolling by?

[Schmerg_The_Impaler]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 5:43pm

I think all of the songs that I've heard from "Tale" have memorable tunes-- and sometimes I even get the short samples from the website stuck in my head. But I had to hear the songs/samples multiple times before I realized how much I like them. It was the same with Sweeney Todd, The Woman In White, and Jane Eyre for me-- I didn't originally think the music was that interesting, and then it really grew on me. I do agree that a lot of the songs are more like the style of a fully sung-through show rather than one with dialogue as well (like "Fantine's Arrest" in Les Miserables), but so many of the songs are more in the style of typical musical theatre songs.

That said, I have to say--whenever my grandmother comes over (which is often), she says, "Sing something from "A Tale of Two Cities." Her favourite song is "Let Her Be A Child," though mine is "Until Tomorrow."

[susanlynn]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 7:57pm

All of the songs are beautiful. I can't recall.. If Dreams Came True is my favorite the song always brings tears to my eyes.. The NY Times was vicious and just not honest.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 8:17pm

<< Either way, most of the reviews of BE, positive as they were, tend to mention the music almost as an afterthought>>

Very true, Jill. I definitely think (and I love Elton) that the score is by far the weakest part of the show. I might get crucified here, but I definitely think "Aida" was a better score. (Especially, if you want to talk about humming tumes when you leave the theatre.)

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 8:19pm

I'll agree he was sort of vicious (despite making claims throughout the piece that he was going to avoid the obvious nasty cheap shots!) but I think, in his mind, he thought he was being honest. What I really think is that he basically let "Forbidden Broadway" write his review for him - and that he's clinically tone deaf!

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 8:37pm

<< I'll agree he was sort of vicious (despite making claims throughout the piece that he was going to avoid the obvious nasty cheap shots!) but I think, in his mind, he thought he was being honest. What I really think is that he basically let "Forbidden Broadway" write his review for him - and that he's clinically tone deaf!
>>

All of the "reviews" were basically vicious, and I wonder if they were watching the same show as everyone else.

You had a cast with Barbour, Burkhardt, Edelmann, Lazar, and Toro--- singing their hearts out every night, over beautiful orchestrations. Feel so blessed to have seen this show numerous times. For weeks, at least for Sara and I, this was our "outlet"-

Thanks Jill, for this amazing score !

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 8:50pm

Hey Jill -

(No snarkyness in ANY of the following, if it sounds that way):

I sincerely applaud you for dealing head on with both the fans and the haters; it's very ballsy and tremendously brave and I know that I never would be able to do what you've done in this thread.

And I do applaud the show for getting to New York - no matter what anybody says, good reviews, bad reviews, no reviews - nothing can take away from the fact that the show opened on Broadway.

As for me, I'm just a dissenter who likes to shoot his mouth off. Should I apologize for my rudeness? Yes; I am sorry if any of my comments have been taken to heart.

My feelings on the show aren't, well, changing at this point, and I will say that I haven't given the music a second listen since I saw it (not out of spite or malice; I just haven't had the opportunity to hear any recording - legal or bootleg).

Perhaps after more than one listen, it would grow on me, I really have no idea. I found TITANIC and NINE to be utterly unmemorable after hearing them at first in the theater, and now I find myself frequently humming them. (And for the record, I won't deny that I've had the musical phrase "Out of sight, out of mind," in my humming repertoire since, jeeze, August, I guess, when I saw TOTC.)

Regarding my fascination, you show has had a storied history. Will it or won't it get here; what will happen after a certain performer's legal troubles, etc. I'm sure a book could be written about everything that's gone on in producing your piece.

Good luck to you.

PS: Not a paid critic, but a published volunteer one. And that's all I'll say about that. Updated On: 11/16/08 at 08:50 PM

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:04pm

Jill,

Why do you - and the company - think the critics were so unkind? You wrote that, "he basically let Forbidden Broadway write his review for him". If you're willing, I'd be very interested in reading the A Tale of Two Cities inside take on what happened and why not just The New York Times, but so many of the New York critics were unkind.

Scott Updated On: 11/16/08 at 09:04 PM

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:09pm

<< Why do you - and the company - think the critics were so unkind.>>

Dont want to answer for Jill, but personally, I agree that the critics were very unkind.

My reasons were stated earlier (a few times) in this thread.

I just think that the show had too many positive things going for it, to get slammed the way it did.

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:19pm

Testing1232,

I'm confused... You wrote that your reasons were stated earlier in this thread. I just read back and the only explanation you offer is one word, "agenda". It is clear from your posts that you're passionate about A Tale of Two Cities. It is also clear that you disagreed with the critics, but I don't think "agenda" explains the disconnect between your - and other's - opinion of the material and the reason why the New York critics were so unkind.

I truly am curious... For those who loved A Tale of Two Cities, why do you think the New York critics were so dismissive of this show?

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:20pm

Yankee Fan,
I'm shocked (pleasantly so) that your interest and attention turns out to be so benign and not meant to be mean spirited. (I seem to remember your review rivaling Brantley, Barnes and Teachout for contempt and loathing but no matter ) I do tend to take everything people say very personally (I'm human that way but the minute you say you didn't really mean anything by it then I'm right as rain. But I did truly think, for quite some time, that you had it in for us for some reason I'm glad to find out I was wrong. I'm even more glad to find that you can't get OOS OOM out of your noggin'. I've got to admit, from what people have told me, that's the closest thing in the score to a simple, pop hook so it makes sense that it might get stuck in your head (against your better judgment I do hope we'll have some sort of recording out in the near future and then I'd be curious to hear what you think. The "concept" recording, though it contains a lot of the music, is SO old and really not representative of the finished show we did on Broadway. It doesn't even have my favorite song "I Can't Recall" on it - so I'd rather not keep being judged on that if I can help it

Anyway, glad we had this little chat. Now I will officially go back to liking the Yankees and James Bond again!

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:24pm

JillS,

You rock. Earlier, I did a search on your posts and I wish to let you know how much I - and clearly others - appreciate your willingness to put yourself out there.

If it's not too personal, or painful, I truly would love to know the inside scoop regarding what you and the company think are the reason for such a disconnect between the show obviously loved by many of the people who experienced it and the New York critics.

Scott
Updated On: 11/16/08 at 09:24 PM

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:30pm

<< Testing1232,

I'm confused... You wrote that your reasons were stated earlier in this thread. I just read back and the only explanation you offer is one word, "agenda". >>

Scott,

I do think they had an "agenda"- to trash the show unfairly.

I think much of it had to do with Barbour backlash. (unfortunately)

My reasoning for thinking that they had an agenda was based on the number of positive aspects of the show. I mentioned (see below)

<< You had a cast with Barbour, Burkhardt, Edelmann, Lazar, and Toro--- singing their hearts out every night, over beautiful orchestrations>>

I also mentioned on this thread : (see below)

I also felt that the score was beautiful, touching, and haughting, and the cast sang the heck out of it !

At the time the show was open, "I Can't Recall" was probably the best number currently on Broadway. (at least by a male lead-again, just my opinion) - If anyone male on Broadway has a better voice than Barbour, would love to hear it !

The costumes were excellent. Loved the set.

Natalie Toro showed off amazing chops on "Out of Sight, Out of Mind"-

I just think there were too many positive aspects of the show to get so critically panned the way it did.

<< I truly am curious... For those who loved A Tale of Two Cities, why do you think the New York critics were so dismissive of this show?
>>

1) They expected it see the show and not have it remind them of "Les Mis" AT ALL. Given the material, that would be basically been impossible !!!

2) Barbour backlash. (definitely from a certain writer from the NY Post)

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:34pm

Actually, Riedel made little mention of Barbour.

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:43pm

Testing1232,

So basically, you believe that A Tale of Two Cities suffered from being unfairly judged for being too similar to Les Miserable and that James Barbour was / is box office poison.

Similar to Les Miserable, I can understand. James Barbour box office poison saddens me. As I wrote earlier, I believe he is an extraordinary talent and it would be a great loss to all to not allow him the opportunity to move on with his life. I don't know the details of his "indiscretion" but I believe if he's paid for his crime, then we should cautiously forgive. (As I don't know the details, I'm not one to judge him to begin with.)

It seems to me that if these are the only reason for the New York critics to have an "agenda" then the state of Broadway is held in undeserving hands. (I have felt this way for a long time anyway.)



Updated On: 11/16/08 at 09:43 PM

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:45pm

Nobody knows who Barbour is outside the Broadway community; fewer than that read the Post (most people I know wouldn't even let their dogs SH*T on the Post); a lot of people in the Broadway community think he got a raw deal.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:47pm

<< But I did truly think, for quite some time, that you had it in for us for some reason >

We ALL thought that !!!

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.cfm?boardid=1&boardname=bway&thread=983854#3713052

<< Good riddance to bad rubbish. Dreck like this shouldn't have been allowed to come within even 5 miles of Manhattan. >

Here's to still hoping for cast recording !!! I think everyone (Including Yankeefan, will gain an appreciation for the show after a few more listenings. )

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:54pm

I think he was referring to the material and not Mr. Barbour, but please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't think calling A Tale of Two Cities, "rubbish" is fair though. And, I suspect that Mr. Barbour did get a raw deal. I'm also unsure as to how true your speculation regarding the critic's agenda and Mr. Barbour's history is.

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:54pm

Really, Testing? Really?

Only Brody is allowed to Muckrake on this forum!

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:55pm

Oh YEAH, i forgot about that one!!!! Yankee Fan, say it ain't so!!!

K, long as you didn't really mean for me to have my feelings hurt by you calling my life's work dreck I still forgive you