How was Tale Today?- Page 5

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 9:55pm

Oh YEAH, i forgot about that one!!!! Yankee Fan, say it ain't so!!!

K, long as you didn't really mean for me to have my feelings hurt by you calling my life's work dreck I still forgive you

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:02pm

lenasview,

Do you realize that your posting is a pyramid scheme and a chain letter, both of which are illegal, besides being totally annoying. Is it possible that you were the person whistling from the mezzanine?!

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:05pm

::thinks how he's gonna get himself out of this one::

I...uh...didn't like the placement of the seating chart in the lobby!

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:06pm

Yankee,

In this context, I made no mention of Riedel (although, from rumblings, he doesnt like Barbour)

I was referring to:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09172008/news/regionalnews/its_beast_in_show_129477.htm

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:08pm

I would definitely assume "definitely from a certain writer from the NY Post)" to be referring to Riedel, especially in theater circles.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:12pm

<< As I wrote earlier, I believe he is an extraordinary talent and it would be a great loss to all to not allow him the opportunity to move on with his life. I don't know the details of his "indiscretion" but I believe if he's paid for his crime, then we should cautiously forgive. (As I don't know the details, I'm not one to judge him to begin with.)
>>

Totally agree. He seems like a very nice guy, from the few times that we were able to speak with him. I believe he has a
2-3 month old baby girl, and he has moved on (or tried to)

Wish everyone else could do the same.

[JillS]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:13pm

OK Scott, I gotta say (though that last comment about the pyramid whistler did make me laugh) that I'm not sure why you so have it in for the whistlers of the world. I can appreciate that if you've got one right next to you it can be pretty annoying. But except for personal taste, is whistling after every song really worse than yelling "Bravo" or "wooo" after every number? I honestly feel like as long as the whistling or whatever is limited to the applause moments that it's no big deal. And I have to tell you, the response at the last show WAS over the top and unusual and due to the fact that we were closing and a lot of the people were, I am grateful to say, very emotional and very passionate about it. I am, however, proud to say that I heard nothing to match the embarrassingly over the top level of say - any of the early previews of Gypsy with La Lupone!

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:15pm

I'm heading out for the evening. Nice debating with you all. Any other questions - feel free to private message me.

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:17pm

<< ::thinks how he's gonna get himself out of this one::

I...uh...didn't like the placement of the seating chart in the lobby!
>>

LOL... No, you just hated the show, Yankee ! LOL

(Sorry to dig it up, but the word "dreck" just hit a sour note !) :))

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:24pm

I think yelling "bravo" after every number would grow old very fast, too. Whistling was particularly annoying because it seems so out of place in a Broadway theater. And, maybe even more out of place during a production such as A Tale of Two Cities.

I do want to make it clear that I appreciate enthusiastic audiences. I loved that the theater went berserk at the opening title image (sans whistler). All of that energy seemed foolish after a while when it was clear it wasn't grounded in a profound moment of theater, but some audience member's agenda. Come on, as much as I loved James Barbour's performance I don't think whistling to one of his farts appropriate!
Updated On: 11/16/08 at 10:24 PM

[Testing1232]

Posted: 11/16/08 at 10:39pm

I can see the assumption regarding Riedel, Yankee.... and he has had his share of snarky comments re Barbour as well-

http://www.nypost.com/seven/03282008/entertainment/theater/eastern_dreamgirls_103809.htm?page=2

[bwaybabe2]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 4:11am

"(Please remember that I've heard your score only once and will be far more able to comment after repeat listening."

Yankeefan...finally you have admitted what I feel has been one of the "unjust" and "harsh" ways the music from this show has been judged...after only ONE listening, and perhaps not even in the show context. How can you really judge from one go? Read on...

"Also remember, that most audience members will make their initial impressions based on only one listening.)"

But, then, most audiences just go to be entertained, and, like Jill stated, they will not remember the music, unless it is a "catchy" repeated tune. Has anyone here ever taken "music appreciation" in school? As I remember, one reason to take this class is to LEARN to discern the different aspects of music, including things like instrument recognition, etc...If you ever take one of these classes, you will sit there "listening" to different types of music pieces, over and over again. Why? Because it is unreasonable to believe that, from one listening, you can "grasp" all the piece has to offer, and "appreciate" it. Perhaps we can all put this to practice when we judge a score, as well...IMO, it is absolutely irrational and absurd to think Broadway musicals scores should be judged any different.
I have appreciated Jill's music from listening intently to the lyrics, as well as the way they interact with the music (and, of course, this, from reapeated listenings). But I must also say that I still thought it was very "likable" from the first time I heard it. To me, Jill's music is at times haunting, at times touching, and definitely well written and memorable. Just LISTEN to it more than once, and you will "appreciate" all its aspects.
PS...really hoping (and patientely waiting) for that Broadway cast CD!
And, thanks Jill, for making yourself accessible to us on this board...it really makes for a more rounded, interesting and educated discussion of your work
BTW...for all it is worth, I also believe there were "agendas" out there by some posters regarding Tale...I'd leave it up to your imaginations from all that has been discussed, and maybe some "hidden" misdirected feelings towards this wonderfuly artistic piece of theater (or I should say, its enablers).

[CyCoSpAz2]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 5:35am

Just adding my thoughts about the score:

One line stuck with me the most after seeing the show: "Out of sight, out of mind/Where the strong never look." I don't know why it stuck with me, but ever since I have listened to "Out of Sight, Out of Mind" over 400 times (not ashamed)... and I only saw the show for the first time in October! I am still in shock that the Associated Press picked it out as one of the worst songs in the show, as it is easily one of my favorites.

So the second time I went back to see the show, I was pretty (if not over-)familiar with the score, and I too am in love with it, especially the music between the Prologue and "The Way it Ought to Be" when Tale of Two Cities is projected on the scrim. It is tough to shake from your head once you hear it a few times.

And since I didn't have to focus too much on the score, I began to pick up many other things about the show that just deepened my appreciation and made me realize just how much work Jill put into the show.

[dramamama611]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 6:20am

I buy a cast recording for two reasons:
1. I am totally enthralled by the production or
2. A few days later, I cannot get the music out of my head.


Are you really insinutating that I need to purchase the cd for every single show so that I can LEARN to appreciate it? A musical..which includes the score...is a live experience and needs to be taken in WHOLE. MOST audience members WILL only see a show once. If it does not resonate with me, why would I continue to put time and effort into it?

Should I really invest in a show that initially didn't work for me just to see if it grows on me? Do I need to view again movies I dislike too? It is the JOB of the production to grab me and make me invested in it...not the other way around.

Often, when I take my CHILDREN to see a work that is "above" Disney level, I will indeed purchase the music for them so that they have a framework to build upon when they see the show. I am an adult with extensive knowledge of music and theater...I don't rely on primers but on the visiral (sp?) impact the show produces.

[susanlynn]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 7:44am

I agree Broadway fan.. Do we all remember when Tale was in Previews if you dared to come on here and say you liked the show you were viciously attached by many many people.. You were attacked and accused of being a shill if you loved this show.. This went on for weeks and weeks.. Threads would disappear that were started.. The nastiness was ridiculous..

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 8:46am

bwaybabe2,

You are quoting me, Scott, and not Yankeefan. And, although I agree with what has been said about repeat listening and music appreciation, I still believe a Broadway composition should resonate with the listener on some level after the initial listening, most often in the theater.

As for the agenda... I really would like that elaborated on. I find it very hard to believe that Les Miserable fans would feel so threatened that they would trash A Tale of Two Cities just because it exists. And, I truly hope that the show didn't fail because of Jame Barbour (who I believe was brilliant in the role).

Therefore, why did A Tale of Two Cities arrive in New York with such a predetermined mindset to dislike it?

[SillySara]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 9:46am

I feel compelled to address the little side debate that's going on about the decorum of audience members at the closing night. While yes, I did hear the man whistling and yes, he did whistle after every song and often times when something funny happened on stage, I think it all sparks from the fact that every song sung, every scene acted, it's the last time it will happen on a Broadway stage. And usually at a closing show, the audience is largely made up of fans of the show. So it's only fitting to show the cast off with the enthusiasm that they have showed us through the show. The cast was clearly shaken up by the closing, so why not show them support the only way that we can? And sure, if that's by hooting and hollering after a job well done, then so be it. Whether or not someone approves of those actions, well that's your own perogative. Honestly, after watching Barbour perform "I Can't Recall" for the last time and hearing the sheer adoration in the audience, it brought tears to my eyes. I think it's how a show should go out...with love eminating from the audience.

[JillS]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 10:50am

DramaMama - no, if you didn't like the show in the theater you shouldn't buy or listen to the recording to give it a "second chance". If you did like the show in the theater but don't think it's in any way, shape or form due to the score - because you don't find it memorable enough - then you probably should give it a second chance.

[JillS]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 11:00am

Scott - You are itching to get the inside scoop aren't you? I really have no idea why the critics slammed us en masse (except for the few that i kid "didn't get the memo" which mostly included professional bloggers like NYC.com and other smaller newspapers and radio stations that LOVED the show) I have heard a lot of whispered theories from theater "insiders" - the things that they "heard" were behind our rather nasty treatment. But I have no idea if any of it's true. If you private message me I'll try to tell you a few of the things I'd really rather not say publicly.

What I can say is very apparent, just from what they actually wrote in their reviews, was that they all came in with a bias and were predisposed not to like it. Ben Brantley is the easiest example by admitting in his first paragraphs that he'd seen the Forbidden Bway sketch mocking our show before seeing our show and by admitting he'd spent some time thinking about all the obvious trite things he might say to ridicule our show using the first and last lines and guillotines and what not. Then he proceeded to make statements of "fact" in his review that were obviously based on preconceived notions and not on what he was actually experiencing on the Hirschfeld stage - namely that my show is a "poperetta". Get a musical clue! This was a traditional orchestral score sung by legit musical theater singers - there wasn't a single pop instrumentation or riff in the whole score. Stylistically, this score had much more in common with "Oliver" than "Les Miz" - but sadly, people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. It's very hard to change a person's mind about something if they already had their mind made up. And Brantley and many others already had their minds made up when they came to the theater.

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 12:02pm

You read me like a book

And, you are absolutely right regarding the comparison: Oliver is a much better comparison than Les Miserable.

***

I find it curious that I too assumed Les Miserable until I actually experienced A Tale of Two Cities and immediately saw the structural differences. I didn't think Oliver until your post, but you are absolutely accurate in that assessment. This brings me to question my own preconceived notion of A Tale of Two Cities and / or prejudice. My first remembrance of thinking Les Miserable was when I first heard about A Tale of Two Cities and I think that was from a direct mail piece I received - internal marketing materials. It featured a beautiful and exciting image of the Tony Walton stage and David Zinn costumes - first impression, very Les Miserable.

I think the look and feel of A Tale of Two Cities spot on, so please understand I am not implying anything negative about the design(s), just that they share "historical European fiction" "abstract set design" "period costumes". Tony Walton's sets were wonderful and I believe far more dynamic than Les Miserables except for the one "magic" Les Miz moment when the barricade forms itself. (Did budget restrict automating the scaffolding - a la Broadway's Chess - or was it an artistic choice to have the cast move them?)

Having typed this, I do want to add that the similarities between A Tale of Two Cities and Les Miserable at that first impression were positive. I was looking forward to another Les Miserable. I knew the book, and so an opera - pop or classical - would be fun and potentially good. Within moment of being in the theater I knew this wasn't another Les Miserable. It was structured far more traditional Broadway musical and I thought to myself: "interesting", "cool", "let's see what they do with this".

***

So, we were all stuck on Les Miserable when we should have thought Oliver. Now that I think about it, Tony Walton's sets are actually more Oliver than Les Miserable, anyway. Hmmm. Is it that Les Miserable has had such a powerful effect on our culture?

I think your concerns regarding the opening sequence are on target. A Tale of Two Cities loses an important opportunity to set us all straight right at the beginning: "This is not Les Miserable!" To steal again from our beloved Sondheim, I remember a story he tells regarding getting the opening of, A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum, right. It wasn't until the opening worked that the show worked. The audience needed to know what they were about to see. In what context should they view the following? For A Tale of Two Cities: traditional Broadway musical, complex classic score, episodic in structure, but not Les Miserable!

Lots to think about...

[Yankeefan007]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 12:05pm

OLIVER! isn't nearly as well known as LES MISERABLES.

[son_of_a_gunn_25]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:19pm

Updated On: 4/3/10 at 02:19 PM

[barcelona20]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:24pm

Jill,

We definitely appreciate anytime that author's interject some rational thinking into these messageboards, however, I'm not exactly sure what your messages are trying to accomplish. 80% of Broadway shows do not succeed, and unfortunately, yours was one of them. You have nothing to defend, as long as you feel you did your best, that's all that matters. Personally, I do not connect with this sort of grandiose English material. I prefer shows that advance musical theatre, and frankly your show brought nothing new to the table, and therefore did not create any much needed "buzz" in the marketplace. I foresee the same fate for Pride and Prejudice if it ever makes it to Broadway. I also don't think criticizing Brantley or any other critics is going to help anything. Many shows/movies, succeed with negative critics reviews. Just look at Les Miz back in the day. That being said, it would have been interesting to see what type of reaction this show would have received if it had played in London first.

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:30pm

Son...,

I think there is a lot to what you wrote, and it seems to shine more insight than just "Les Miserable" and "James Barbour". Your comment about the pool of new producers strikes a chord in me. I believe that Broadway producers live among their own code and culture, and I wonder if this new breed paid attendance to the ruling class.

One immediately thinks, Disney. Perhaps Disney is just so powerful that they didn't have to pay their dues. Or perhaps they knew how to oil the squeaky gears and were accepted into the fold. A production like, A Tale of Two Cities, arrives with a whole different set of baggage. I wonder how welcoming the "producer's club" was as well as how humble the new kid was upon arrival?

Ah, the politics of Broadway...



Updated On: 11/17/08 at 02:30 PM

[Scott Briefer]

Posted: 11/17/08 at 2:50pm

barcelona20,

It is not my place to speak for Ms. Santoriello, but I'd suggest that processing the roller coaster ride of dedicating so much of her creative life to the writing and mounting of, A Tale of Two Cities, easily explains wanting to discuss the experience. Message boards are a relatively new phenomenon and offer a whole new way of communicating with people you'd be unlikely to have access to. In addition, the dynamic of this medium is very different than the backstage talk among theater professionals. There is something to be said for the anonymity that this medium offers. If one is strong and able to hold one's own, there is probably a lot to be learned here. In fact, I think this thread fascinating.