Hunter Bell - On Opinions That [title of show] Is Too Insidery- Page 2

[TulitaPepsi]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:05am

Broadway musicals have a long tradition of "insider references": As far back as Piff! Paff!! Pouf!!! (1904) its hit song "Since Dolly Dimple Made a Hit" (Jean Schwartz-William Jerome) mentions several Broadway personalities including David Belasco and Lillian Russell. Lorenz Hart and Cole Porter relished dropping the names of Broadway stars, other Broadway composers and members of the Manhattan social set into their songs. Hunter & Jeff's score is part of that delicious tradition.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:08am

And let's not pretend there aren't overly zealous fans and most of the other shows.

And on this board.

Overly zealous fans should have no bearing on the critique of the actual work no more than rude people with cellphones, chit chat, or candy wrappers.

[GIZMO2]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:45am

Thanks, PalJoey, for once again pointing out that everything I write about my two experiences with [tos] are lies and never really happened.

I appreciate your keen awareness and insight into the truthfulness of all things.

So, from here on out, rather than spout erroneous opinions, let me just stick to facts:

Broadway Grosses 8/03/08:

233,821 seats sold last week.
229,835 seats [not] to [tos]

Now, PalJoey, I suppose you're going to claim that the stats above are false because I posted them?

(shakes head and walks away)

[Kad]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 1:08am

And those figures have everything to do with people believing that the show is insidery and that [tos] cultists are ruining the experiences of everyone that goes... and nothing to do with the fact that the Lyceum isn't well-placed for a show that is in no way a recognizable commodity and possesses no big names?

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 1:10am

Good point, Tulita! I think these Cole Porter lyrics to "Let's Not Talk About Love" are TOO INSIDER FOR BROADWAY!

Let's speak of Lamarr--that Hedy so fair?
Why does she let Joan Bennett wear all her old hair?
If you know Garbo, then tell me this news:
Is it a fact the Navy's launched all her old shoes?

Let's check on the veracity
Of Barrymore's bibacity
And why his drink capacity
Should get so much pub-la-city.
Let's even have a huddle
Over Ha'vard Uni-vaaaaa-sity,
But let's not talk about love!

Let's wish him good luck! Let's wish him more pow'r!
That Fiorella fella, my favorite flow'r!
Let's get some champagne from over the seas,
And drink to Sammy Goldwyn--
"Include me out"--please!

Let's write a tune that's playable,
A ditty swing-and-swayable,
Or say whatever's sayable
About the Tow'r of Ba-abel,
Let's cheer for the career
Of itty-bitty Betty Gra-abel,
But let's not talk about love!

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 2:11am

jrb_actor: The show is self-indulgent because it's a giant ego trip; the fact that they acknowledge it does not make it any less so.

[commasplice]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 2:31am

Yes, but in the case of people like Cole Porter and songs like "Let's Not Talk About Love," wasn't theatre one of the most popular forms of entertainment at that time? Thus, the things mentioned there would be more recognizable just because they were mainstream, unlike today, when theatre falls behind (often far behind) movies and television (even music - think about how long it's been since there's been a cast recording -- not movie musical soundtrack, a Broadway cast recording -- at the top of the charts, or even a song from a Broadway musical that wasn't sampled by the flavor of the week). The attention paid now is much different than then. It's not an accurate comparison.

(I remember being at Spamalot a few years ago and being one of maybe three people laughing at the Company reference, but nearly everyone laughed at the mention of Britney Spears. That's another rant for another time, though...)

(And for the record, I really have no opinion one way or the other regarding [tos]. Haven't seen it, haven't heard anything from it other than a song on XM a couple weeks ago I can't remember the name of, haven't read the blogs or watched the YouTube videos or even the ads. Just enjoy reading the debate.)

Updated On: 8/6/08 at 02:31 AM

[fvalle24]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 3:36am

and the battle between the [tossers] and the vampires continue!

The show f**ing rocks!

Sometimes I feel like the people tarnishing the show are people who WISHED it was them on stage, making their dreams come true...The Vampire of Jealousy, Bitterness and Elitism ring a bell?

[jordangirl]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 6:56am

Once again paljoey and fvalle24, I have NEVER said I hated it. I do not love it and worship at its altar, but I don't HATE it.

That being said, pal, thanks for invalidating my experience and the experience of many of the people sitting around me.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 7:58am

No, sweetheart, that's what YOU do, with your endless and repetitive hate posts.

[broadwayjim42]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 8:44am

I'm to the point where I don't care if it's too insidery, too self-aware or whatever and the arguments on BOTH sides are getting repetitive.

I laughed more than I did in long time, was on the verge of tears several times and identified more with the show and the message than perhaps anything I've ever seen.

THAT is why I loved it...and it only reflects my personal experience.

[jrb_actor]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 10:23am

A giant ego trip?

I'm starting to think that some of these "critiques" say more about the critic and less about the show. I can't see how one could think that was a giant ego trip on the stage. That just sounds like an extraordinarily jealous comment.

Maybe I'm wrong.

[Dolly_Levi]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 10:32am

and the war rages on. i miss all the passing strange debate. ha!

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 11:35am

I like how I'm supposedly jealous when I'm not even pursuing a career in theatre.

[broadwayjim42]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:05pm

We all take from the show what we take...whether it be absolutely nothing or, as in my case, a whole lot. Each response is individual and all this back and forth backbiting isn't solving anything.

Die, backbiting, die.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:07pm

That's good advice. I'm sorry that I called the show egotistical, maybe that was too much, but I do think it's very self-indulgent and I don't really like that about it.

I also wish that it had more to it.

[Kalimba]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 12:44pm

"Sometimes I feel like the people tarnishing the show are people who WISHED it was them on stage, making their dreams come true...The Vampire of Jealousy, Bitterness and Elitism ring a bell? "

Oh please, what a lame argument. Some of you liked it, some of us didn't.

[jordangirl]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 1:55pm

They are not hate-filled. They are simply not worshiping at the same altar you do. BIG difference.

And I've never said other people don't or can't love it. And I certainly never said that people who do love it imagine their experience. I've simply said that there are SOME people who do make it feel like a very insidery experience. My roommates love it. They know I don't. They were frankly thrilled that I didn't hate it. They understand that not everyone is going to love it. Why can't you?

Updated On: 8/6/08 at 01:55 PM

[PalJoey]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 2:35pm

Why can't you stop posting the same thing day after day?

Do you think you haven't made how you feel abundantly clear?

Why post the same thing, day after day after day after day...?

[jordangirl]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 4:16pm

I don't see you complaining when people post the same things praising them day after day after day after day after day.

It's a two way street. "Sweetheart".

[Pocketsquared Fanadu]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 5:02pm

OK, I really had promised myself I'd stay out of this, but the shrillness of the conflict between the [tos]sers and the [dis]sers just has me scratching my head here. I totally understand how someone can be so passionate ABOUT something as to try to get the message out that someone else should see it (and this includes an art exhibit, the waterfalls under the Brooklyn Bridge, Heath Ledger in the Dark Night, whatever--not just [tos]). What I am NOT getting is why there is such a passion to get the message out NOT to see something--again, [tos] or not, but in this specific case, [tos]--in post after post after post. So it's not your thing, WE GET IT; yeesh, it's not a snuff film, kiddie porn, or anything of the sort, but my God the harshness of some of these posts might make a body think that it's a work along that order. In point of fact, it's quite the opposite. I also have to say that the "apology" I'm going to quote here made me laugh out loud today (as opposed to upsetting me, which just goes to show how low I think the level of discourse has gotten about a show I am admittedly passionate that people should see for themselves:

"I'm sorry that I called the show egotistical, maybe that was too much, but I do think it's very self-indulgent and I don't really like that about it. I also wish that it had more to it."

I think we are going to have to agree to disagree here, but again, if some of the [dis]sers had been able to give a logical explanation about why you are so hepped up about this show, then us [tos]sers would not have felt the need to venture hypotheses to which you took offense. IMHO,I think the [tos]sers have been fairly eloquent about volunteering what makes us have the depth of passion we do in favor of [title of show].

[Kalimba]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 5:19pm

Gotta love you, jordangirl!!

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 5:22pm

Nice of you to single me out; in the future, I suppose that I will never admit when I have been too harsh in my opinion of a certain topic. I would also like to point out that rabidly defending something is not really much better than rabidly dissing it.

And there are plenty of reasons to advise people not to see something. That's why criticism exists in the first place. Broadway shows, especially, cost a lot of money, and it's wise to know what you are getting into.

But I never told anyone not to see it. I just said why it doesn't appeal to me.

[Pocketsquared Fanadu]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 5:30pm

Spork (if I may)--Honestly, no offense was meant in quoting you. I just laughed because your apology then got in an additional dig. I agree that criticism, in its literal definition, heightens the quality of the arts, and I think that constructive criticism is even better. I just said that I don't understand why this show strikes such a negative chord in people to make them want to tear it down over and over (not the literal definition of criticism). And I do think we can agree to disagree and not be furious with one another.

[Reginald Tresilian]

Posted: 8/6/08 at 5:37pm

Pocket (if I may), I agree with you.

I haven't seen the show, so no offense to anyone is intended. But I just don't understand the impulse behind repeated negative comments when it comes to shows and performers.

You don't like Patti LuPone, for example? Okay. But why spend most of your waking hours looking for threads so you can swoop in and attack?

I simply don't understand the motivation.