#76
Posted: 10/21/05 at 5:01pm
Yes, absolutely!
That phony guy.
JRB is the real king!
Let the hate begins!
That phony guy.
JRB is the real king!
Let the hate begins!
Is Stephen Sondheim Overrated??? — Page 4
#77
Posted: 10/21/05 at 5:06pm
I think the hate parade has already passed. But if you want to talk hate, cruise on over to the "Why is everyone so defensive" board and get your groove on there. There's hate for all!
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#78
Posted: 10/21/05 at 5:08pm
Not overrated at all, amazing name a current musical theater composer that comes close
#79
Posted: 10/21/05 at 5:08pm
I post there already, with a different sentence.
:)))
:)))
#80
Posted: 10/21/05 at 5:27pm
Yeah, I saw you over there, sanda. You're a hate-monger today.
You promised me poems. ~Tricky
#81
Posted: 10/21/05 at 6:44pm
He is very talented composer but he is not the second coming of the messiah as some think
I love a lot of what he does. Other stuff yawn
I love a lot of what he does. Other stuff yawn
Poster Emeritus
#82
Posted: 10/21/05 at 6:51pm
Sondheim changed the face of musical theatre and is one of the first composers to make such interesting music for ACTORS...for the most part stuff written before Sondheim doesn't interest me.
I love him :0)
I love him :0)
-Anyone want to turn anarchist with me?"Bless you and all who know you, oh wise and penguined one." ~YouWantItWhen????
#83
Posted: 10/21/05 at 6:56pm
"Tir Na Nog, I have one objection to your previous post. You equate "educated people" with those that have knowledge of the theater or music history, but that's definitely a narrow-minded opinion. You can be educated- even an expert- in a some fields but not have any knowledge in some others. Would you consider yourself educated? How are you at quantum physics? What about African American rhetoric or paper manufacturing?"
Education comes through EXPOSURE not only through books. When I say someone "educated" I mean someone highly exposed. I do consider myself educated. I have done and seen a lot. I went to two very good colleges and have seen the world. I read whatever I can get my hands on and open my mind to almost everything =)
People who don't know about art (and that includes MT) are not educated in my mind. To not expose yourself to art is limiting the power of the human condition. As far as quantum physics go, I know a little lol. However, art is a lot more accessible than physics.
Education comes through EXPOSURE not only through books. When I say someone "educated" I mean someone highly exposed. I do consider myself educated. I have done and seen a lot. I went to two very good colleges and have seen the world. I read whatever I can get my hands on and open my mind to almost everything =)
People who don't know about art (and that includes MT) are not educated in my mind. To not expose yourself to art is limiting the power of the human condition. As far as quantum physics go, I know a little lol. However, art is a lot more accessible than physics.
"One difference between poetry and lyrics is that lyrics sort of fade into the background. They fade on the page and live on the stage when set to music". - Stephen Sondheim
#84
Posted: 10/21/05 at 8:35pm
I wouldn't say overrated.
I realize that he, though considered, isn't a god. There are some scores that I'm not fond of (Merrily..Along. Please don't throw flaming 'In My Life' playbills at me, I don't hate all of it) )
To say overrated is just cutting the cheese too soon. Sondheim has brilliantly brought us musicals that enlightened the contemporary era. Though some of his work does take more than a listen to appreciate it, some (for me, at least) was love at first play of song.
I realize that he, though considered, isn't a god. There are some scores that I'm not fond of (Merrily..Along. Please don't throw flaming 'In My Life' playbills at me, I don't hate all of it) )
To say overrated is just cutting the cheese too soon. Sondheim has brilliantly brought us musicals that enlightened the contemporary era. Though some of his work does take more than a listen to appreciate it, some (for me, at least) was love at first play of song.
"The cynicism you refer to, I acquired the day I discovered I was different from little boys!~All About Eve
#85
Posted: 10/21/05 at 8:36pm
No, no, no...and...
No.
No.
What the puck?!
#86
Posted: 10/21/05 at 10:59pm
Personally, Sondheim doesn't really do anything for me. I admit that he has some good songs, but I can never understand why some people treat him like he is God. I do like Passion, and Sundays in the Park with George, but I just can't get in to him.
So yeah, I think he is over-rated, but he is a lot better than some of the others who are over-rated.
So yeah, I think he is over-rated, but he is a lot better than some of the others who are over-rated.
#87
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:40pm
even at his worst he is head and shoulders above the rest!
#88
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:42pm
Who is better than Sondheim?
Frank Wildhorn
Michael Gore
JOE BROOKS!
Frank Wildhorn
Michael Gore
JOE BROOKS!
#89
Posted: 10/21/05 at 11:58pm
i love that u love flops!
"People have their opinions and that doesn't mean that their opinions are wrong or right. I just take it with a grain of salt because opinions are like as*holes, everyone has one".
-Felicia Finley-
#90
Posted: 10/22/05 at 3:25am
I do not think over-rated, not if by that you mean undeserving of the praise he has received.
He puts much more thought and care into selecting each word and each note than just about anyone else. Most lyricists are happy to manage two lines of text that rhyme, Sondheim goes for words with multiple meanings, alliterations, and dazzling wordplay. He knows when to embellish a lyric with strong melody and when to use more of an accompaniment for when the lyrics get tricky. But each decision is made with a good deal of thought and care. Now you may not like the end result but you sure can't accuse him of insulting your intelligence.
If anything, far too many critics and audience members do not fully understand his shows and they tend to dismiss them as "boring", or "pretentious." Usually people that don't like his shows are those who want easy tunes, cheap laughs or overblown romanticism - They don't want to have to think about musicals They want everything served in pre-fab bite-sized bits, like a McHappy meal.
But there are others who feel (as I do) that the shows he has helped create are far more interesting that current or traditional standard musical theatre fare, and I only wish other writers would follow his example.
He puts much more thought and care into selecting each word and each note than just about anyone else. Most lyricists are happy to manage two lines of text that rhyme, Sondheim goes for words with multiple meanings, alliterations, and dazzling wordplay. He knows when to embellish a lyric with strong melody and when to use more of an accompaniment for when the lyrics get tricky. But each decision is made with a good deal of thought and care. Now you may not like the end result but you sure can't accuse him of insulting your intelligence.
If anything, far too many critics and audience members do not fully understand his shows and they tend to dismiss them as "boring", or "pretentious." Usually people that don't like his shows are those who want easy tunes, cheap laughs or overblown romanticism - They don't want to have to think about musicals They want everything served in pre-fab bite-sized bits, like a McHappy meal.
But there are others who feel (as I do) that the shows he has helped create are far more interesting that current or traditional standard musical theatre fare, and I only wish other writers would follow his example.
Cast albums are NOT "soundtracks."
Live theatre does not use a "soundtrack." If it did, it wouldn't be live theatre!
I host a weekly one-hour radio program featuring cast album selections as well as songs by cabaret, jazz and theatre artists. The program, FRONT ROW CENTRE is heard Sundays 9 to 10 am and also Saturdays from 8 to 9 am (eastern times) on www.proudfm.com
#91
Posted: 10/22/05 at 7:01am
not in the lest bit is he overrated. If ANYTHING, I'd consider him underrated. I mean, people know Rodgers and Hammerstein instantly, but if I mention Sondheim, I get a 'huh'? I would love for him to be a household name but 'times is hard...times is hard' for Broadway today to be like it was in the Golden Age.
Happy...Everything!
Kaye Thompson
#92
Posted: 10/22/05 at 7:54am
"I do like Passion, and Sundays in the Park with George, but I just can't get in to him."
I just think the shows of yours that you enjoy are so funny because those are the shows which typically alienate people!
I just think the shows of yours that you enjoy are so funny because those are the shows which typically alienate people!
BSoBW2: I punched Sondheim in the face after I saw Wicked and said, "Why couldn't you write like that!?"
#93
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:10am
"If anything, far too many critics and audience members do not fully understand his shows and they tend to dismiss them as "boring", or "pretentious." Usually people that don't like his shows are those who want easy tunes, cheap laughs or overblown romanticism - They don't want to have to think about musicals They want everything served in pre-fab bite-sized bits, like a McHappy meal"
Ah, the Sondheim snobs. It's not enough to simply admire The Master's works - one has to look down with disdain and contempt upon those who have differing tastes. Those self-appointed musical-theater-tastemakers put me off Sondheim for years.
Sondheim isn't pretentious, but many of his fans are.
Ah, the Sondheim snobs. It's not enough to simply admire The Master's works - one has to look down with disdain and contempt upon those who have differing tastes. Those self-appointed musical-theater-tastemakers put me off Sondheim for years.
Sondheim isn't pretentious, but many of his fans are.
"If you really loved me, you'd enjoy my cold, joyless gloom."
Updated On: 10/22/05 at 08:10 AM
#94
Posted: 10/22/05 at 4:15pm
Mr Roxy...no one on THIS thread has said he was the second coming of the Messiah. But if your standards for 'genius' mean that someone has to write ALL GOOD MUSIC ALL THE TIME, then you'll never find a genius. Even the best painters in the world painted a picture that wasn't so great sometimes. It is the BODY of the work that matters and I'd challenge you to find anyone else writing today who has done as much good work as he has done.
Sometimes I think that the standards we set are so impossibly high that it is unreasonable to expect a human being to meet them. He is as close as you can get IMHO.
Sometimes I think that the standards we set are so impossibly high that it is unreasonable to expect a human being to meet them. He is as close as you can get IMHO.
"Life is a lesson in humility"
#95
Posted: 10/22/05 at 5:03pm
Stephen Sondheim the man is a complete gentleman. Never in my theatrical life have I met someone so legendary and yet so dedicated to helping people, and especially young people, find their way in this scary world. He is a total class act and has corresponded with me personally always willing to answer any questions I have. The man is a legend in the minds of others but he is a mentor, teacher and hero in my mind. Please lets try to maintain the difference between the views of Sondheim and the views of his fans in regards to the works of others.
BSoBW2: I punched Sondheim in the face after I saw Wicked and said, "Why couldn't you write like that!?"
#96
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:01pm
>>I LOVE Rodgers, particularly with Hammerstein. But, Sondheim has had a longer career and I dare say impact. But, If anyone would be in competition to argue that, it would indeed be R&H---they did create the foundation of plot driven musical theatre, creating some of the greatest musicals ever.<<
Sondheim has had an impact on writers, perhaps, but not where it ultimately counts--at the box office. For good or ill, Lloyd Webber has been far more influential on the form with his pioneering sung-through/rock 'opera' musicals. That said, however, Sondheim's place in musical theater history will no doubt be analogous to Wagner's in the field of opera: a polemicist who argued the seriousness of his craft.
>>Do we say the same thing about Shakespeare or Beethoven?<<
No, because Sondheim's works, all told, are not comparable in stature.
>>Neither did Mozart.<<
A spurious argument. Sondheim has chosen to work in a populist medium, Mozart wrote in an elitist genre for aristocratic and court audiences.
Mayella Ewell
Maycomb, Alabama
Sondheim has had an impact on writers, perhaps, but not where it ultimately counts--at the box office. For good or ill, Lloyd Webber has been far more influential on the form with his pioneering sung-through/rock 'opera' musicals. That said, however, Sondheim's place in musical theater history will no doubt be analogous to Wagner's in the field of opera: a polemicist who argued the seriousness of his craft.
>>Do we say the same thing about Shakespeare or Beethoven?<<
No, because Sondheim's works, all told, are not comparable in stature.
>>Neither did Mozart.<<
A spurious argument. Sondheim has chosen to work in a populist medium, Mozart wrote in an elitist genre for aristocratic and court audiences.
Mayella Ewell
Maycomb, Alabama
Updated On: 10/22/05 at 08:01 PM
#97
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:29pm
I think the "overrated" question is getting lost here a bit.
Sondheim could still be "God's gift to music" and not be the most popular composer now. Those are two different things. I've already given my opinion on this subject, but consider this...
Van Gogh sold only one painting while he was alive. Seurat never sold one at all. No one outside of the small art world knew their names back then. Hardly a far-reaching impact. Does that take away from their genius now, because they weren't the most "popular" during their lifetimes?
Maybe you think so.
Sondheim could still be "God's gift to music" and not be the most popular composer now. Those are two different things. I've already given my opinion on this subject, but consider this...
Van Gogh sold only one painting while he was alive. Seurat never sold one at all. No one outside of the small art world knew their names back then. Hardly a far-reaching impact. Does that take away from their genius now, because they weren't the most "popular" during their lifetimes?
Maybe you think so.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Updated On: 10/22/05 at 08:29 PM
#98
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:35pm
"I just think the shows of yours that you enjoy are so funny because those are the shows which typically alienate people!"
Hmmm, that's odd. I do tend to like the bizarre theatre experience, maybe that's why I like those two.
Hmmm, that's odd. I do tend to like the bizarre theatre experience, maybe that's why I like those two.
#99
I don't know who you are addressing, best12bars, but I'll answer all the same.
'Genius' and 'art' are two of the most misunderstood, misapplied and abused words going today. In the end, there is only one arbiter of both and that is posterity. How far-reaching Sondheim's 'art' will be remains to be seen. Personally, I think his shows will be regarded as 'noble experiments' or 'rara avis,' rare birds, that may or may not hold up in the future. COMPANY, the show that truly put Sondheim on the map, is already looking dated and chilly, if the Roundabout revival is any indication. As in all things, time will tell.
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:37pm
I don't know who you are addressing, best12bars, but I'll answer all the same.
'Genius' and 'art' are two of the most misunderstood, misapplied and abused words going today. In the end, there is only one arbiter of both and that is posterity. How far-reaching Sondheim's 'art' will be remains to be seen. Personally, I think his shows will be regarded as 'noble experiments' or 'rara avis,' rare birds, that may or may not hold up in the future. COMPANY, the show that truly put Sondheim on the map, is already looking dated and chilly, if the Roundabout revival is any indication. As in all things, time will tell.
#100
Posted: 10/22/05 at 8:46pm
I'm not actually adressing the opinions on either side at all. Whether or not you think he's overrated is the question. And some people are answering that directly.
But some are getting hung up on whether or not he has a big impact or is known by the masses, or is the most popular composer today (or of all time).
I think these are entirely different questions, and have nothing to do with whether or not he's overrated. If you say he's overrated BECAUSE he isn't the most popular or well-known, I point you to Van Gogh and Seurat in their day. That was the reason for my comparison.
But some are getting hung up on whether or not he has a big impact or is known by the masses, or is the most popular composer today (or of all time).
I think these are entirely different questions, and have nothing to do with whether or not he's overrated. If you say he's overrated BECAUSE he isn't the most popular or well-known, I point you to Van Gogh and Seurat in their day. That was the reason for my comparison.
"Jaws is the Citizen Kane of movies."
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
blocked: logan2, Diamonds3, Hamilton22
Tickets From $59
Tickets From $71
Tickets From $71
Tickets From $95