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#26

re: Let's Talk Doubt

"Doubt" is a far better play than "The Pillowman," which is rather glib and acted wildly unevenly (Billy Crudup, for example, is utterly without charisma, and I couldn't help but wonder what Brian F. O'Byrne might have done with the role; Jeff Goldblum seems to be acting in the Jeff Goldblum show.)No way is "Doubt" about molestation; rather, it's about the need to be certain, and the inability to have doubt. The irony of the ending is that Sister Aloysius, as Magruder points out, realizes that her certainty may have, in fact, caused Father Flynn to be promoted, and given him further access to boys. At any rate, her doubt is about her own certainty in the Church, considering what has happened. There is wonderful complexity and ambiguity about her own belief.

Updated On: 8/14/05 at 11:11 AM

#27

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Wanna Be A Foster, if you really think that Doubt ties everything up into a neat little bow until the last line, I wonder what play you were watching. Certainly not the play I saw at the Walter Kerr where nothing was tied up at all and the last line simply makes you even less certain of what to think.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#28

re: Let's Talk Doubt

So an audience member at the stage door told us today that she had seen the Pasadena production (that DGrant saw) and hated the show--fell asleep during it. She loved today's performance--it was night and day for her.

Apparently, the Pasadena production was HALF AN HOUR longer than the NYC production. Same script. Wow--that's bad pacing.
johnraymondbarker.com
#29

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Bad is an understatement! My word, no wonder the Pasadena production was so deathly.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#30

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Which is why I say that this plays relies heavily on GREAT performances and great direction in order to work -- which to my mind demonstrates that the play itself is just good, not great. A true masterpiece can survive slow pacing. This one couldn't in the Pasadena production (which starred two first rate actors -- Oscar winner Linda Hunt and Theatre World Award winner Jonathan Cake).

I'm not slamming the play, only stating that while I think it's well-written and well-constructed and can be quite effective with great performers, to refer to it as "The Play Of the Decade" or "A Modern Day Masterpiece" as some have, is utterly ludicrous. There are EASILY a dozen much more innovative, original, challenging, groundbreaking plays from the last five years than DOUBT.
"What a story........ everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end." -- Birdie [http://margochanning.broadwayworld.com/] "The Devil Be Hittin' Me" -- Whitney
#31

re: Let's Talk Doubt

While you MAY have a point there, Margo, I have sat through some wretched professional productions of

THE GLASS MENAGERIE
WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF?
DEATH OF A SALESMAN
MEDEA
and most any Shakespeare

And, I don't believe anyone would doubt their greatness as plays.
johnraymondbarker.com
#32

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I don't think any play can survive bad pacing and directing and it goes both ways. I saw the world premiere production of Shape Of Things which ran 2 hours no intermission and I LOVED it, went back to see its closing night performance. Then it was revived in London with Alicia Witt (who is also a first rate actor, I think) and while it only ran 95 minutes, I wanted to chew my own arm off, I was so bored. And a lot of actors who are considered to be first rate are only as good as their director.
Nothing precious, plain to see, don't make a fuss over me. Not loud, not soft, but somewhere inbetween. Say sorry, just let it be the word you mean.
#33

re: Let's Talk Doubt

So what do you think about the guilty of Father Flinn? I am surprised that there are people who think there is no doubt until the last line. For me, I keep doubting that Father Flinn is guilty. To me, he sounds really innocent. Even when Sister Aloysius said if Flinn was innocent, he wouldn't quit, I still didnot buy the explanation.

I should say I am not sure.
#35

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I was completely convinced he was innocent and that Sister Aloysius was a complete nut until the scene in her office with just those two... man, that scene was so well acted and written, it just blew me away, and left me utterly lost as to whether Father Flynn was guilty or not
#36

re: Let's Talk Doubt

And in the most wretched of productions, usually the text's greatness shines through. In fact, I've seen many a bad production of a classic that ends making the mediocre performers seem even worse because I've sat there imagining what the show would sound like in better hands.

I love playing a game of recasting a bad production playing in from of me, imagining in my head how Vanessa Redgrave or Ian McKellan or Cherry Jones or Morgan Freeman might have delivered a given line or speech I've just watched get butchered in front of me. It's especially fun when I'm watching a revival of show I've seen a better production of in the past and I can just "play the tape of it" in my head while I watch the incompetence floundering around in front of me.

The reverse of that is watching truly great actors take mediocre material (not that DOUBT is that) and through sheer technique and skill and actor tricks, elevate it into something almost brilliant and eminently watchable. I think of seeing Uta Hagen in "Mrs. Klein and "Collected Stories" (not a bad play, but a rather just a slightly above average star vehicle), where her intense commitment to every single moment made for a riveting experience. I watched her take dialogue that would have read flat and uninteresting on the page and create poetry out of it and somehow giving the text layers of meaning nowhere evident in the writing. I remember Frank Langella in "Match" a couple of seasons ago, chewing scenery and pulling everything he had out of his bag of tricks to turn an underwritten piffle of a play into a truly entertaining night of theatre. I even thought "Amy View" was just another routine and undistinguished hackjob from David Hare, except when the extraordinary Judi Dench walked on the stage -- suddenly the stilted dialogue seemed to SING.

DOUBT to me is similar to that. It's a well-wrought, well-made play, the type I've seen several times a year for the last 30 years or so (the so-called "well-made" play, especially drama, is my parents' favorite form of theatre and I saw a few a year from the time I was 4 years old). This form has always been a favorite with institutional theatres around the country for decades and decades. They provide easy to follow plots, solid characters for good actors to explore, typically have a unit set so they're cheap to produce, and are usually not very demanding of older subscriber audience who don't like to be too challenged when they go to the theatre. You get a couple of basic conflicts, maybe a twist or two, and everybody leaves the theatre happy that they have something not too controversial to kickstart the dinner conversation afterwards.

This is not theatre that is trying to change anyone's life or their view of the world, to force them to examine themselves and their lives and undergo a personal catharsis at the end. That's not to say a "great" play necessarily HAS to do that, but when I think back on the older grown men around me with tears streaming down their cheeks at the end of the last revival of DEATH OF A SALESMAN (not a "well-made" play) or ANGELS IN AMERICA (obviously not "well-made"), I realize that theatre CAN still have the power to make on impact on people's lives.

Perhaps, the well-made play can still do that and maybe DOUBT gave some people that experience. It left me merely entertained and grateful for having witnessed such superb acting. But, in the end for me it was like seeing Uta Hagen in "Collected Stories" -- a brilliant performance I'll remember for the rest of my life in a play that was fine, but nothing special.



"What a story........ everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end." -- Birdie [http://margochanning.broadwayworld.com/] "The Devil Be Hittin' Me" -- Whitney

Updated On: 8/14/05 at 08:05 PM

#37

re: Let's Talk Doubt

What I also doubt about is Sister Aloysius's intention. Is she really what she declared as an Angel who defend God with a sword? Or she was so stubborn because she didnot like Father Flynn personally?
#38

re: Let's Talk Doubt

That's the idea, sanda--not only are we in doubt of the truth--we are in doubt of the characters' motivations.

I agree with what you say, Margo. I just don't know that I agree that DOUBT is as weak as you imply. It will be interesting to see how the play survives after this cast/production.

I do think it is extremely topical--we have become a country that is so entrenched in our views. We think we know things when we really do not truly KNOW. This is true in the scandals of Michael Jackson. Terri Schiavo. Even George W. Bush.
johnraymondbarker.com
#39

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I'm glad Doubt won :)
And the other thing about the Phantom Lady was, Bert, she realized, in the city that never sleeps... What did she realize, Kitten? That all the songs she'd listened to, all the love songs, that they were only songs. What's wrong with that? Nothing, if you don't believe in them. But she did, you see. She believed in enchanted evenings, and she believed that a small cloud passed overhead and cried down on a flower bed, and she even believed there was breakfast to be had... Where? On Pluto. The mysterious, icy wastes of Pluto.
#40

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I respect both Margo and JRB enormously, and look forward to their posts. I agree that Doubt is a prime example of the well-made play, but for me this does not undermine its power. I have recently read the script, and this has reinforced that position.

I completely agree, though, that "messy" plays such as Angels in America have the potential to be transformative in a way that the well-made play probably does not. After all, as T.S. Eliot observed about Hamlet, structurally, it's a mess. Yet that is part of the power of the play, and why it endures as a fascinating exercise in playwrighting.

When I think about the importance of a production, I keep returning to The Pillowman; I really want to love this play, but I was so disappointed in the production, as I have mentioned in other posts; Billy Crudup (I know I am a minority here) is not charismatic (which the role appears to require), and Jeff Goldblum seemed to be in a play of his own. For me, he never connected with the other actors. I will be reading this to see if I can solve this dilemma for myself.

#41

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I certainly agree with that JRB and understand what Shanley was going for. To me, he just didn't quite get there and the writing wasn't quite as inciteful and potent as it needed to be and I thought that it was Jones et al, and not the writing, who ultimately put the material over the top and made the production memorable.

When I went back to see it a few weeks ago, I was really hoping that I had been wrong about the play and that maybe I had just seen an off-night early in previews at MTC and that my opinion would change. Obviously, I LOVE great theatre and wanted to have the experience that seemingly everybody else was having with this play. The performances had certainly grown (Lenox was a friggin powerhouse -- amazing) and Jones' final scene was even stronger, but I think the pacing was off for some reason because it DRAGGED in the first half in a way it didn't drag the last time I saw it (I went with my parents and my mother said afterwards, that while she really enjoyed it, it took a while to get going). It was a Sunday matinee so perhaps they were a bit tired from the long week -- completely understandable (this is live theatre after all). That second viewing did nothing to change my opinion -- GREAT production (acting, directing), good, above average text, with the overall experience being thrilling .... but NOT for the writing.

This is such an actors' play and this cast is fantastic. I will most certainly return to see the play when they bring in a new cast next year sometime (I believe they all just extended through March or April). A different cast is really going to change all of the dynamics and make it into a very different experience. We'll see what happens.


"What a story........ everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end." -- Birdie [http://margochanning.broadwayworld.com/] "The Devil Be Hittin' Me" -- Whitney
#42

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I can't wait to see a new cast; that will certainly be telling, won't it?
#43

re: Let's Talk Doubt

And something that just popped into my head:

I remember seeing Brian Friel's wonderful "Dancing At Lughnasa" when it was on Broadway several years ago. The show opened with its original Irish cast and the acting, directing and overall production made that play seem like an absolute masterpiece. After about 6 months, I believe, because of Equity rules, the original cast had to leave and was replaced by a first rate American cast which included Jan Maxwell, Patricia Hodges et al. I took a friend of mine to see it with the new cast. It was LONG, boring and, frankly, terrible (and had exactly the same running time). My friend was absolutely puzzled, he'd read great reviews and was dying to see it and was completely disappointed (and he's no theatre neophyte -- he's been an award winning professional actor and director for over two decades).

The soul of the piece was missing. There were a thousand tiny, subtle, almost unnoticeable things that the Irish cast had brought to play that the fine American cast hadn't found yet in the text. Honestly, there was nothing obviously wrong in any of those performances, but suddenly, the play itself seemed thin and not as poetic and the final scenes which were so electrifying and powerful with the Irish cast, just sat there (with precisely the same blocking as before).

A friend of mine worked concessions for that theatre and had stood in the back and watched every single performance of the play and he told me that he was almost depressed at the fact that it was a totally different, inferior experience than it was before. There was an elation he felt watching the show before 8 times a week, that he hadn't felt even a spark of with the new cast (and he agreed with me that they all were first rate). And it had also made him re-evaluate his judgment that the play was a masterpiece, "How could a masterpiece play this badly night after night, with the same director and production with a cast this talented?"

There's an indefinable alchemy that happens sometimes with certain casts that creates theatrical magic that simply cannot be replicated, no matter how talented the replacements are. "Lughnasa" was one of those times. We'll see if lightning strikes twice with DOUBT when the replacements come in next year.

"What a story........ everything but the bloodhounds snappin' at her rear end." -- Birdie [http://margochanning.broadwayworld.com/] "The Devil Be Hittin' Me" -- Whitney

Updated On: 8/14/05 at 09:11 PM

#44

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Margo--
That's a wonderful example, and brings me back to "The Pillowman"; I kept doing your thing (recasting the play) as I was watching, wondering how the experience might be different with other actors in two of the roles. I do know I am in a minority here, but I think that casting and production make so much difference to the experience of a work.

And from the sublime to the ridiculous--anyone seen "Rent" lately?
#45

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Jeez, I miss a day of this and everything happens. JRB - I wasn't saying that a large majority of people in general prefer The Pillowman, I was saying that holds true among my friends. And I've read through Doubt multiple times in order to get myself to like it, and I just couldn't. If I see it, with all the wonderful acting, perhaps I will. But the script itself is no masterpiece. I agree completely with Margo about the statement about timing, and I think that it depends on the play. Popcultureboy - While the timing might not have had a major role in determining how good the productions of Shape of Things, if you look at just the script of Doubt, I cannot imagine living through it if it was as slow as the Pasadena production. While reading it, you have to imagine everything happening at a fast rate, otherwise it just bores the mind. The build in the play connects to this immensely. And I am certainly not trying to be stubborn about my view of Doubt. I am simply saying, from the script itself, this is what I believe. I feel that my opinion would certainly change if I saw it acted-out. But again, the writing, by itself, is no masterpiece and would not justify the play's hype.
#46

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I haven't seen it, but I've read it. LOVED it. Hope to see it next time I go to NYC...
#47

re: Let's Talk Doubt

But, most plays are rubbish to read--they are meant to be experienced in performance.

And, I've already stated that this is a play that leaves room for the actors and directors to fill in between the lines. JPS has written a tight script that allows for that--and that is not a sign that it is a bad play.

You could read Pinter or Ionesco and think the same thing easily.
johnraymondbarker.com
#48

re: Let's Talk Doubt

I didn't disagree with you on what you stated before. That's why I said that I feel my opinion would change once I saw the acting. However, I do not feel JPS created a "tight script," as you call it. That's where we disagree. He does allow room for the acting and directing, no dispute there. But the writing itself just doesn't work for me. I know the difference between masterpieces on paper and masterpieces on stage. I have read many plays that I consider masterpieces on paper that naturally contribute to becoming masterpieces on stage (McNally pieces, Wright pieces, Kushner, etc). IMHO, this is not one of them. Simply my opinion. That is all I was saying. I want to see this on stage, because I believe truly that this would fit in the second category, which is what you and many others are saying.
#50

re: Let's Talk Doubt

Had no idea that my topic would be this big! Now, I remember the last line mentioned something about, "I'm beginning to have doubts," or something along that line. Could someone give me the line in its entirety? That would be awesome. i guess I should see it more that once, and maybe a little closer to the stage, too.

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