Lloyd Webber vs. Puccini

very old news

Here's another. The Phantom phrase happens at the 0:41 point:

http://youtu.be/q-CtnLDcnjU

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I love how this fits in with the argument of Lloyd Webber being a crap composer...does this mean Puccini was too?

Realistically though, just because there are similarities it doesn't mean the piece was consciously plagiarised. I have written pieces of music before that I have realised sound like something else and have therefore changed them. However, there are only a certain amount of melodies humans can write before similarities appear. Lloyd Webber of course could have had this happen to him, but by the time The Music of the Night was heard by the Puccini estate and challenged, it had already become an instant hit. Why would Lloyd Webber even try and change it when The Phantom of the Opera was already taking off so quickly? I can see why he settled out of court if this is the case.

The important thing, of course, is to consider the number of things that Puccini undoubtedly stole. Consciously or other wise.

EDIT: nomdeplume, we're thinking along the same lines.

Updated On: 9/4/11 at 04:24 PM

And really, it was

Puccini vs. Webber

I know there are only so many notes, but I had never seen Fanciulla and was very curious about it.

Every time the love theme came up, I thought about Phantom of the Opera, as, I think, does nearly everyone.

The reason I think Lloyd Webber settled out of court is not just the similarity of the note progression. If that were all, one supposes his lawyers would have urged him on and he would have prevailed.

It's that the melody line in both cases is used to create the exact same emotional climax for the audience.

So it's not just a question of melodic similarity. It's a question of one artist appropriating another creative content and intent.

You can see it here at 6:39-6:50, with subtitles:

http://youtu.be/ageTFz1VzZQ

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Updated On: 9/4/11 at 05:13 PM

So if a composer takes a melody that is 'traditional' and uses it in his show should it be noted or let the audience think that it comes from the composer?

Updated On: 9/4/11 at 05:46 PM

Not sure what "traditional" or "noted" means. Folk tunes are usually old enough to have fallen out of copyright protection, but Puccini is still protected, as are, obviously, Lloyd Webber's.

But "Music of the Night" and "Quello che tacete" (the name of the aria) have pretty much identical emotional content: a "bad" man possessed by obsessive love, attempting to convince a reluctant young woman to love him. (Not to mention that the Phantom, being a creature of the opera, would know all Puccini operas, even if Lloyd Webber were to claim he did not know this particular melody from Fanciulla.)

It would be as if I were to sit down and compose a musical about a political couple--say, Bill and Hillary Clinton--and I used the brief but climactic phrase from "A New Argentina" in which Evita sings "He supports you / For he loves you, / Understands you, / Is one of you...") with different lyrics:

Bill is charming,
Bill is handsome,
He needs votes and
He demands some

But that was all. The rest of the song would be different. But several times in the sequence and possibly in reprises, the incredible diva who played my Hillary would sing

Bill is charming,
Bill is handsome,
He needs votes and
He demands some

in the same sequence of thrilling notes Evita sings.

If Lloyd Webber sued me, I would settle out of court too.

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Updated On: 9/4/11 at 06:07 PM

But something like "How I Saved Roosevelt" from Assassins is note for note in a great many places the Washington Post March my Sousa... yet it's called a pastiche. When does pastiche become stealing ...must be ones point of view

Copyright and the fact that Sondheim INTENDS for his audience to hear and be aware of the tune from Sousa. It's a quotation, just as the inverted "Dies Irae" in Sweeney.

Thanks, joey. Yes, people have always said, "Well, Webber steals from Puccini." But my knowledge of Puccini wasn't sophisticated enough to hear it until the two tunes were played side by side.

Not that Webber is the only one who does this. Compare Romberg's "Serenade" with the violin solo between the first two scenes of Massenet's THAIS.

If you REALLY want to hear what he has stolen, go and listen to Song and Dance. All he did was add a drum part to the Puccini piece, he never even tried to hide it.

What got me was an interview he did some odd years later when asked if he could go back in time and change or re-vamp a show of his or not; he said, regarding S&D that he wouldn't change a single note.

Well of course not, he lifted the entire thing!

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This video has been around on YouTube for a while
ALW - Genius or Plagiarist?

I think you're thinking of Paganini?