Miss Saigon + racism — Page 2

Thanks, A Director, that is interesting. "It's a masterpiece, so let's cut it in half and perform it out of order!" Not that I'm particularly bothered: as with Shakespeare, the original texts exist and aren't destroyed or negated by experimentation.

I'm not sure what they hope to accomplish by making the seppuku "ambiguous". I always think Butterfly's suicide is her ultimate revenge on Pinkerton, something for him to live with from then on.

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Sally, I don't believe it was I who said STREETCAR or BUTTERFLY is dated. My point was the opposite: that both works remain relevant as long as human beings have ideals and our culture understands the stage conventions well enough to create and enjoy the plays.

I was comparing Cio-Cio (I guess we're spelling her name with Cs now; my copy had Gs) San and Blanche in that both are betrayed by their own idealism and that's what makes them tragic. But of course you are correct that Blanche is more finely drawn; she is, after all, a decade older and a college graduate. And she is betrayed by being unable to live up to her own ideals of love and sexual conduct. Cio-Cio San is more a true victim, though in the Greek sense, it doesn't matter how innocent of bad intention she may be. She fails in her understanding of Pinkerton and that makes her tragic.

adam.peterson44 said: "One thing that puzzles me. All of the things that people criticize Miss Saigon for in its portrayal of Kim could also be said of Les Miserables in its portrayal of Fantine (and partially, Eponine). Like Kim, Fantine falls in love with a guy who gets her pregnant and leaves her, she turns to prostitution to survive/support the child, is beaten/abused by the pimp and customers, gets ill and dies because of the prostitution and leaves her child in the care of a wealthier, healthier person to raise him/her. Eponine also gets herself shot by climbing back over the barricade in wartime to be with a guy who doesn't love her one more time. Yet i've never heard anyone say that Les Miserables is racist for its portrayal of French people or sexist for its portrayal of women or of French women.

The last article linked above is from a person who rather arrogantly presumes that the show should represent her because she is from the same country, but of course, it is not about that author, it is about a fictional person in a very different time and circumstance. I would never presume that any show set in the US or Canada should represent me (i've lived in each country approx. half my life). Just because there are not many many shows about Vietnamese characters does not mean that any one show is therefore by default representing all Vietnamese people - that assumption makes no sense at all to me. And to the author of the article in the first post who knocks down the strawman that the show is not a barnstormer of a musical to him, he seems to forget that some stories are tragedies, not barnstorming, raucous, rip-roaring fun-time shows.



"

I agree. It seems like some people refuse to see Asian characters, like Kim, as human.

This race focus, combined with the crazy idea that everything should represent everyone, and that people say they dislike the show because there are not many other shows about vietnamese characters is pure lunacy.

Diep Tran, who wrote the article, seems for the past year to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything and then writing angry articles about it.

Perhaps you'd like to whitesplain to her about why her experience watching Miss Saigon as an actual Vietnamese person is invalid.

I'm sure your post is well intentioned, but it absolutely drips with privilege. (And you'll probably stop reading this here and lump me in with the "self-righteous" folk you call out)

in the last couple years, many theater people have become so easily offended and self-righteous that it is making me, someone who is actually on their side, feel kind of grossed out.

This is the typical stuff I see from supposed "allies" all the time--"I'm on your side, but don't make me feel uncomfortable!" "Why do you have to bring up every little thing?" It's not about your level of comfort. And saying something like "Diep Tan seems to have dedicated her life to getting offended by everything" is a typical rhetorical move to silence POC by painting their experiences as hysterical, oversensitive, or performative.

I am married to a POC. We are about to have a baby girl who will be a POC. And as a theater person, you're damn right I want her and every other POC to feel included both onstage and in the audience. However, I think we can discuss the inequities of representation and inclusion with a little less oversensitivity and hostility.

Being married to a nonwhite person doesn't mean that you can't still think or act in ways that are racially insensitive. I'm a white person married to a nonwhite person, as well. I've certainly said things that I probably shouldn't have said--not out of malice, but out of ignorance. And when someone claims that POC are discussing issues with "oversensitivity and hostility," what I hear is that I don't want to be uncomfortable, or I don't want to be called on my s*it. It's projecting.

Should POC's be played only by POC's onstage? Of course. Is it a huge injustice if a talented young man of Sicilian heritage plays Usnavi in In the Heights in a small production in Chicago? I don't think so.

You'd probably feel differently if one of the handful of roles written specifically for a person of your ethnicity was cast with an Anglo-American or European actor.

Should we have way more shows by POC, about POC? Yes please. In fact, we desperately need to. Should we ignore the previous 2,000 years worth of plays just because most of them were written by white men? That would be unfortunate.

Who on God's green earth is advocating throwing out the entire history of Western drama? Precisely no one. That's not the same thing as some pointing out that it might be more interesting to support a contemporary playwright (especially one who isn't white or isn't male) rather than producing the 57th revival of The Glass Menagerie.

James Corden opened the 2016 Tony Awards by stating, "Theater is a place where every race, creed, sexuality, and gender is equal, is embraced, and is loved. Hate will never win." I love this quote, and believe that everyone in the theater needs to make it part of their daily lives to live up to this statement.

But what you're saying with your words is that theater is a place for everyone, so long as they don't make me feel uncomfortable or act in a way that i deem to be oversensitive or hostile. Basically, nonwhite people can be included if they're seen but not heard.

I think this quote from Donyae Coles says it best: "When a POC calls you out on your s*it, don’t argue with them; listen and accept what they’ve said so that you can grow as an ally. Don’t try to tell them their perspective is wrong. You don’t get to decide what is and isn’t offensive to them."

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 01:35 PM

AC -

Thank you for taking the time to write a well-thought out response. That said, it is exactly the kind of thing that I was referring to, and which in many ways goes against the very idea of equality. This is not a time for, "Shut up Whitey and sit down, you're part of the problem," this is the time for, "Yes, our white ancestors created a country that was discriminatory by design, but let's do better." All I'm saying is that we can achieve the desired result without demonizing anyone and by spending our time, focus, and energy on actual injustices instead of things like a community theatre production of Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

Also, your claim that I am saying that "nonwhite people can be included if they're seen but not heard" is deeply insulting in both in its unfoundedness and yes, its unwarranted hostility.

You want to be part of the solution? So do I. Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.

'Step one: see and treat everyone as equals with equally important voices.'

But you don't have an equally important voice on every subject. When the subject is representation of POC in the theater, your voice simply is not as important as the people whose lived experiences as POC. They are the voices that should be driving this conversation. And we, as white people, should be listening, no matter how uncomfortable it feels. I have a lot to say on gay white man issues since that is my lived experience. It doesn't mean I cannot speak on other issues. But there will be people who know more because of their experience engaging in the world. So perhaps your voice and thoughts on this aren't nearly as important as a POC. Maybe they're actually not important at all. And maybe neither are mine. And I'm perfectly fine with that.

I strongly disagree with this. It's about arguments. The things mentioned in the articles have nothing to do with this show so the fact these unreasonable things are said (like Diep Trans': this show taught me that whiteness kills) by a POC does not make it about this show or more true. Or anyone else less right.

To brush aside opinions because of someone's color is just not right. We should always stay reasonable.

We should listen to good arguments but we should not accept these kind of arguments.

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 02:40 PM

'To brush aside opinions because of someone's color is just not right.'

I'm not brushing aside your opinion because you're white. I'm brushing aside your opinion because you called Miss Saigon a masterpiece which...ooooooh, gurl.

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 02:48 PM

AC126748 said: "The problem is, white people are so used to being placed (or placing themselves) at the center of conversations that we often don't know how to react when we're not anymore, or when someone suggests that maybe we shouldn't be. "

I don't like your language and the use of words such as "whitesplain this please".

What is your goal of this constant race focus?

I am talking about this confused girl, Diep Tran, who displays racist comments and expresses how she thinks the show should be more about her, which is ridiculous for every human being to say, and then goes on to say "This show taught me that whiteness kills", is not true and not fair towards the show. This is not what the show teaches anyone in their right mind.

Yeah. So maybe stop making the conversation about how "woke" you are and how you are such a terrific white ally.

I've done nothing of the sort. Diep Tran certainly doesn't need me to speak for her. It's clear I've hit a nerve, and I'm going to retire from this thread as well, because continuing this line of discussion in this forum seems ultimately fruitless. But I'm glad you've decided to take a step back and listen; maybe you'll learn something.

Oh... I was so enjoying this thread. But it seems they all end up like this anyway.

SonofRobbieJ said: "You guys! You're being so mean! Dave is feeling very triggered by the word 'whitesplain' when discussing a show with lyrics like 'Greasy chinks make life so sleazy' and 'one of these slits here will be Miss Saigon.'"

A character in a show not being wholesome/to your liking because in the story he behaves a certain way in the war in 1975 is something very different than treating a real person like that on a forum in 2017. You are basically confusing these 2 things, just like Diep Tran.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread too, because the discussion is not about the show. It's about personal issues and false accusations. It might as well could have been about Wicked, and people hating the show because Elphaba is green, so she's different, so she's bullied, and I was bullied too, so I hate the show, because I don't think anyone who's different should per definition be bullied, and so I actually rather like to see people who are different but not being bullied and every character should only say things to my liking and behave in a way that suits me and if not I'm going to hate the show, and, blablablablabla, YAWN....


Ps. Those "slits" display more character than Diep Tran.

Updated On: 7/11/17 at 05:28 PM

Awesome discussion u guyz. A bunch of white people arguing over who is RIGHT about race issues....