NEXT TO NORMAL Revisited - Some Spoilers- Page 2

[theaterkid1015]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 1:12am

See, I took the vast changes (from deadpan to swiping plates, to steal RentBoy's example) that Diana was probably bipolar, and that PTSD had only worsened her condition. I think a few times Dan mentioned that she was always "wild," but he just thought she was free spirited.

And, here's the weird part for me: I kind of love her voice. Like, I know TECHNICALLY it ain't what it used to be and a little weird, but I'm obsessed with it. Is that just my strange obsession?

[fetzles1490]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 1:26am

"Why not have Diana grow tolerant to the medicine or something, or chuck it, as most bipoalr people do, because she misses mania? They didn't even have to bring up emotional numbness, IMO."

I haven't chimed in on much of these debates because I don't feel like getting into, and it's an interesting enough discussion to read without getting involved. And Spork, I generally see where you're coming from in your posts regardless of whether I agree. However, Diana DOES chuck her medicine because she misses mania. That's exactly what I Miss The Mountains is about, and that is also the scene in which she throws out her pills. And she misses mania because she's feeling emotional numbness, so I don't see your point here.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 1:29am

Lack of mania doesn't mean emotional numbness, though. She could just miss the mania without going from one extreme to another.

[Craww]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 1:51am

I think the lives of people with mental illness are dramatic enough that they don't need to exaggerate treatment side effects to come up with good twists and turns.

Sure, I guess. But that's not the story being told, and it never was, and it never could have been.

On some of the other threads, people have said "I don't see it as a show about mental illness" and others have pointed out how that was kind of absurd, considering how much the show deals with the subject. However, I don't think the show was conceived as a show about mental illness. I think it was conceived based more on the concept and the circumstances of Diana's trauma. The drugs, the therapy, the treatments...they were built up around the trauma, not vice versa. Therefore, at the very heart of the show it can't be a show about mental illness in the way some want it to be.

Regardless of how much of the show revolves around mental illness, it wasn't written about the subject of mental illness in that sense.

[fetzles1490]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 1:56am

Maybe she interpreted her lack of extremes as emotional numbness. She never actually uses those exact words, either. Her exact words are, "I don't feel like myself. I mean, I don't feel anything." Since that line comes from Diana and not some third party narrator, it's obvious that it's solely Diana's perspective, and from her perspective, I think it's quite possible that what she's feeling IS 'nothing' compared to the extremes of bipolar disorder. With that being the case, it certainly makes sense for her to say she doesn't feel like herself after her life has been defined by the highs and lows for so many years.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 2:03am

I think the show was built off a cool idea about having a son who dead, etc.

And, I'm not stupid, I realize the "set-ups" for the two moments I mentioned. I understand what they're referencing, etc. My point was the manner in which they are executed. She seems TOTALLY crazy when she says "But my husband is waiting in the car." At least the two times (Over the span of a year) that I saw it. She came off as crazy. Obviously she has some sort of mental illness or something. That's obvious. And then the thrashing of the plates seems a bit...much?

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 2:13am

Yeah, I guess that's another question: is she actually experiencing emotional numbness or is it simply the absence of depression/mania?

Edit: Screw it, I'm just gonna keep calling it that until I'm not lazy enough to look up the term in my psychopharm textbook.

Updated On: 4/12/09 at 02:13 AM

[broadwayrob]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 3:09am

I hope this doesn't come off as stand-offish but here goes.

I don't think that it is a musical's job to set finite details on peoples lives/problems/or in this case, mental illness. I think that we should use it as a framework for all of us to relate to, in some way or another.

From Diana to Natalie to Henry to Dan, you hit so many different "kinds" of people and the way they handle themselves.

I think what this show does, like all really important pieces of art, is creating discussion amongst a vast group of people who have either had someone like any of the characters in their own lives or have experienced it themselves.

I don't mind people not liking the piece (that's what opinions are for.. in my case I think it's the best show that's come to Broadway for a LONG time), but honestly do you remember when a Broadway musical created this much discussion about a serious issue? No matter how true/false it may be, it got people talking about it.

And THAT is the important part that I think people are losing sight of.

[KingKong]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 9:59am

SHE ********* SAYS THAT SHE DOESN'T FEEL ANYTHING.

What about her being emotionally numb are you people not getting?

It's become clear that the detractors of this show will stoop the level of making something up while bashing the show.

[April Saul]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 10:04am

I second Foster's reservations as well as Rob's reminder that N2N is causing much discussion about a subject that needs it.


Finally, after all these threads, I am understanding where many posters are coming from and it is fascinating. Those of us who are bipolar or have bipolars we love who have found medication overall to be a life-saving godsend seem to be the most concerned about any anti-med message; while those of us who've found meds to be so numbing they caused even greater despair relate even more to Diana and defend the show more strongly. The passion that we argue these points on this board reflects the ferocity of bipolar disorder itself...what a ravaging f------ illness!

For anyone here who might have less personal experience with bipolar...even in the best case scenario, the road to medicating bipolar effectively is basically a long, lousy science experiment with constant improvising and lots of crappy choices. I used to think--and it feels like a million years ago--that if you had a mental illness, you simply took the right drugs and everything would be all right. I couldn't have been more wrong.

Flaws notwithstanding, I'm glad N2N is here...and I'm especially grateful to have the chance to share my reaction to it with the posters here.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 10:15am

Yeah, I guess that's another question: is she actually experiencing emotional numbness or is it simply the absence of depression/mania?

She says she doesn't feel anything. How could you not interpret that as emotional numbness?

My point was the manner in which they are executed. She seems TOTALLY crazy when she says "But my husband is waiting in the car."

That whole sequence is a delusion. She's supposed to appear crazy.

Obviously she has some sort of mental illness or something. That's obvious. And then the thrashing of the plates seems a bit...much?

Why is that a bit much? She's angry.

[kidmanboy]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 10:57am

I don't think the show is anti-med. Surely Diana is anti-med at that point in the show, but...

SPOILER

..her husband DOES seek treatment at the end of the show. I think that it's important to separate CHARACTER'S opinions from that of the authors. The show is telling a family's story. It's not Brian Yorkey's PhD in psychology thesis.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:03am

Okay, okay, it's emotional numbness. No need to "scream" at me! I was possibly agreeing with someone who was defending the show, not bashing it. Good Lord.

I'm honestly more annoyed with the portrayal of talk therapy than anything, to be honest. I mean, from what I heard in the cast recording.

kidmanboy: But, given that everything Diana tries ends up having horrible and even rare side effects, I think it's not unreasonable to infer that the writers maybe don't have the strongest faith in these treatments.

Updated On: 4/12/09 at 11:03 AM

[Kad]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:04am

Most of the talk therapy is actual dialogue and not on the recording.

I think it's... unwise of you to be debating about this show based on the recording alone. It's a two hour plus show. The recording is less than an hour and a half long. There are key moments of dialogue that aren't included- both in terms of scenes AND interspersed in the songs. I would say that just over half of the songs in the show are uninterrupted by dialogue (as they appear on the recording).

Updated On: 4/12/09 at 11:04 AM

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:09am

Yeah, but what I heard wasn't good, I mean.

Fair enough, though. Sorry, please understand that usually I'm not like this: it's just so hard for me to not debate something that's such an issue in the field, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to see the show on stage.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:15am

Dude, I just said I'm doing that. You can stop now.

[Kad]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:20am

"Fair enough, though. Sorry, please understand that usually I'm not like this: it's just so hard for me to not debate something that's such an issue in the field, and I don't know if I'll ever be able to see the show on stage."

That's understandable, since you clearly have a personal investment in the topics portrayed.

For what it's worth, I went into the show completely in the dark the mental health topics it portrays, and walked out feeling that the show presented both positive and negative attributes of treatments in a good way. I did not walk out feeling that the show was anti-medication, anti-ECT, etc. etc. It was the story of one family's case. Is this case more extreme than the overwhelming majority? Yes and that is obvious. But, frankly, to me and the majority of the audience, it was extremely compelling.


I came out of the show curious about the topics presented and have been trying to educate myself on them.

[adamgreer]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:38am

I'm honestly more annoyed with the portrayal of talk therapy than anything, to be honest. I mean, from what I heard in the cast recording.

And therein lies the problem. A significant amount of dialogue is missing from the OBCR, so as not to be to spoiler-ish. If this is such an important issue for you "in the field" as you put it, then see the entire show before you debate its merits.

[KingKong]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 11:42am

Because adam, that would require her to actually know what she's talking about. And its easier to just bash the show when you're ignorant of the facts.

[SporkGoddess]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 12:02pm

Gahhh, I already admitted that, apologized, and said that I'm done. What more do you want from me? If I could go back in time I could probably actually see the damn show.

Btw, Kad, as long as I'm posting I wanted to say: you made an excellent point.

Updated On: 4/12/09 at 12:02 PM

[winston89]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 2:27pm

I am someone who has experience with a psychopharmocologist. I have one and I just like in the show I had to go through more then one two find the right one for me. I have experience with talk therapy etc. I think that what is good for me personally is that the people that I have worked with realize that it is possible for someone to have symptoms that are a mix and match of other things and that more often then not people don't fit into these diagnoses that are already out there. That you can treat the symptoms without having to have an official diagnoses and fix the problem that way. This is all what is going on and what I have learned via personal experience rather then just reading a book or anything like that.

That being said, I found it easy to believe that they were treating symptoms with Diana's case rather then trying to figure out what she has. It didn't bother me that they didn't name what it was that she had because at least with me and my personal experience that information at times doesn't matter. As for the whole ECT story line, I also have learned that you can use different treatments and meds that might be, for the most part, used for one thing, and be able to use them for something else. For example, I take Klonopin but not for the traditional reasons that one might use it for. I have tourette's and while that might not be the main reason one would take Klonopin, but it still works for me. Therefor I can see the logic in them suggesting ECT without knowing exactly what she has.

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 7:30pm

SprokGodess

You have yet to learn that you can't have an opinion on this board unless it is KingKong's opinion. He/she really does not handle disagreements very well at all. Bottom line is, if Next to Normal were about stomach ilness... this is what it would look like:

Diana has a stomach ache

The Doctor gives her stomach pills

The pills take away the pain but make her feel like she has no stomach

Diana misses having a stomach

All the other alternative treatments make her feel like she has no stomach

All her other treatments give her the worst possible symptoms.

-Sorry, but that doesn't happen-

(I am deeply sorry for typos, the computer I'm using doesn't have spell check)

The thing people forget about is that this show deals with an issue that is rarely talked about and people have a tiny knowledge of. Normally, that would set off a flag in the creative team's head that it should be handled responsibly... but instead they present the audience with an impossible mental health scenerio (but one hell of an interesting story). Sure, some audience members might be able to see through all the unrealistic notions, but it might stear many others into the wrong direction.

WannaBe, what you said about medications not making people feel numb is untrue. While I agree that this show, in many ways, is irresponsible... numbness caused by medication is very common. I've seen it happen to pepole I love, BUT.... A switch of medication, no matter how many switches it takes, USUALLY fixes the problem; however, to display a scenario in which every mediaction the woman takes doesn't work... and in which some treatment causes horrible and rare side-effects, is not responsible.

[AndAllThatJazz22]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 7:49pm

Commenting on the amount of memory loss diana has is bad because she hasn't seen the show? What, does the show have a sequence at the end that shows that the loss of memory was a bad dream? It's not like she's commenting on character development here!!!!

[SayitSomehow]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 7:50pm

I would also keep in mind it's not entirely memory LOSS per se, since almost all of it comes back to her as she is prompted by cues. It's more of a "brown out", like after a night of excessive drinking.

[snl89]

Posted: 4/12/09 at 7:54pm

Ok, sorry, I just have to jump in here real quick:

"Bottom line is, if Next to Normal were about stomach ilness... this is what it would look like:

Diana has a stomach ache

The Doctor gives her stomach pills

The pills take away the pain but make her feel like she has no stomach

Diana misses having a stomach

All the other alternative treatments make her feel like she has no stomach

All her other treatments give her the worst possible symptoms.

-Sorry, but that doesn't happen-"


The thing is, I think that when you're dealing with mental and emotional issues, it's not that clear cut. With something like a stomach ache, obviously no one likes to feel sick to their stomach. It's a very simple matter where you do whatever needs to be done to get rid of the stomach ache, and that's that. With bipolar disorder, I DO absolutely believe that certain medications can make a person feel numb. I mean, remember, we're talking about a condition where you get the highs as well as the lows. A person with bipolar disorder has very extreme emotions, and although sometimes those emotions can be terrible, sometimes they are wonderful as well. So when you take away those huge mood swings, I don't doubt at all that it can make a person feel very strange. Yes, technically it may be balanced and healthier, but when you're used to feeling very extreme emotions and then suddenly you don't, it can probably feel, well, numbing.

Don't get me wrong, I DO completely understand what you guys are saying that medication tends to be a saving grace, and it's not something that people should be afraid to try. But I just think that... for some people, it can have that effect. And that's not to say that they should just give up on medication if it does have that effect. I Diana's particular case, she does, but that's just Diana's case, and the show doesn't really suggest that it's the right choice for her to have made. It's simply the decision she herself makes under those particular circumstances.


I'm getting completely rambly here, but basically my point is just that, to compare this to a simple stomach ache seems rather off to me. I don't think the two are comparable. How a person feels emotionally is too complicated to try and simplify it so much, you know? It's not a straight forward, easily curable physical ailment. It's a very imperfect science.