Nine,the musical: A Discussion- Page 2

[buffyactsing]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:55am

Assassins definatly has a central question,

what motivates those people to commit their crimes?

Or maybe I'm not understanding what you mean by central question.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:00am

I actually don't see WSS as a concept musical.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:02am

I think Bee and Avenue Q are concept musicals in the way that they were basd on a concept, I guess as someone said a "conceit" - though i'm not familiar with that term.

FoscasBohemianDream, I'm also reading Rebels With Applause about the "ground breaking" musicals. Though they include Floyd Collins, which I'm not sure is really the best pic, but its his book, not mine. I'll look into the one you're reading, sounds interesting.

I don't think we have reached the end of musical theater in any way at all. I think its begining to become more mainstream. Although, I do hope we end the whole "spectacle musical." Or, more so, the end of Disney on Broadway. I don't mind Disney, but I don't like when they just rehash old movies that weren't that great to begin with (cough Tarzan cough).

If we talk about concept musicals in the sense that they were built on a big concept, Lion King might be thrown in there, I mean it was built on the concept of these actors playing these animals in these abstract sorta constumes. What about BKLYN, though I know not the best example, doesn it really have a linear plot? Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the show, but it seems to be more experimental.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:08am

I think now concept musical is being applied to liberally. By your definition, all shows are concept musicals. you can't have a show without a concept. I don't know what the hell a conceit musical is. Lion King is just theatreical. Actors playing animals doesn't make it a concpet musical. I think Julie Taymor using masks makes for groundbreaking storytelling, but that doesn't make it a concept musical to me. Although I'm tired of spectacle on Broadway, we can't get rid of it all. I think it takes all kinds of theatre. I just wish there weren't so much of it.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:20am

A conceit musical (this is funny, it's an inadvertant pun. A musical conceit. Get it?) is the same thing as a concept musical. It means the director/writer/composer/whoever is really at the helm of the thing has an idea, thesis, conceit, concept, around which they fashion the elements of their show. It's just a synonym.

I mean, all things work like that. Otherwise you become unspecific. You can't have a song without a hook or some kind of musical conceit that ties everything together. Well, you can, but for the sake of conversation I'm talking within the limits of conventional thinking.

BTW, whoever said that you can sum up Oklahoma as being about two people who fall in love, actually, most people would sum up Oklahoma in the following one sentence. Who will Laurie take to the dance? :P And there are concepts, it's about the expansion of the US across North America, territorialism, and national pride. It's all commented on in the show. It's not particularly intelligent, but it's there thanks to Oscar.

Jazzysuite, you make a good point. I feel the same way about West Side Story. Dancing isn't a thesis statement. It's just theatrical.

I like spectacle, but spectacle with substance (I think The Lion King validates itself). Also, I think Floyd Collins is a pretty forward thinking musical in terms of its score and staging. I mean, the story is actually told through music. Not commented on. No scenes are turned into songs that say the same thing over and over and just add five minutes to what would have taken 15 seconds. The music actually does the job of letting us into the character's heads in a strangely non-recitativey kind of way. A lot of other people do this very well, notably most new composers.

Sondheim may be the master of writing songs that are songs and still character specific, but it's kind of fun how a lot of composers nowadays tell full stories in their songs.

I dunno about theater being mainstream. I think it's always been mainstream. There was a time when it was mainstream and it was more creative. Now it's becoming kind of a circus. I hate how all shows have to run for six years to turn a profit, cost a million dollars, and they have to be these huge events or else nothing at all. But on the bright side, it's opened the door for musical theater to get a LOT more diverse and, dare I say it, entertaining.

I love this thread, btw.

Updated On: 1/20/06 at 02:20 AM

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:22am

I agree Jazzysuite. At the same time, I wouldn't mind it so much, if the creative team put more into the story/music than they do into the sets/costumes/marketing, etc. I know i'm going to get ppl mad etc about this, but I could careless, its an opinion, I think Wicked is the best of the spectacle musicals although I don't really consider it a spectacle musical. I don't think people come to see the witch fly at the end, I mean its not that amazing. Like someone said, they could have do so much with the fly effects, but they didn't and I appreciate that. But anyways, back on topic. Maybe Lion King doesn't have a concept, I was just throwing that out there, I'm still foggy on the subject as well. I think concept still refers to something with a nonlinear plot. So that gets rid of a lot of musicals that were speculated as "concept" musicals.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:28am

It's honestly not applied because the musical doesn't have a plot. Fiddler on the Roof is loaded with plot, but it is a concept musical. It just means there is an overt and obvious concept the musical is trying to give us more to think about on. Tradition (The breaking and maitaining of), in the case of Fiddler on the Roof, as applied to turn of the century Russia when anti semitism is running rampant, the world is changing, and boys and girls are beginning to dance dances together.

Fiddler on the Roof and Company are really good examples. I'm not really sure what the concept of Cabaret or A Chorus Line is supposed to be. In those cases, like in the case of The Lion King or Avenue Q, I think it's just a conceit. And there's really very little difference.

I totally agree about Wicked, by the way. I think it's a solid show. It's not Shakespeare, and I get irritated when people treat it as such, but if nothing else it delivers a great evening. I think spectacle in itself is totally valid creatively speaking. Wicked may have big set pieces but it's not like she's flying around the whole show.

I was wondering how long it would be before somebody dragged Wicked into this :P There are other musicals! You know, Peter Pan flies!

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:28am

See That's my definition of a concept musical. I think it's nonlinear plot. Frankly I don't think anyone comes to the theatre for the special effects. If you look at all the spectacle shows now, they have something that audiences love. The problem is it's not new. They're called new musicals simply because they haven't been on broadway before. Lion King isn't a new musical, it's a movie turned into theatrical experience. Some of the songs are even recycled. I think Spectacle depends on the show. I consider Wicked to be a spectacle. It's HUGE. When you look at the book and score there are some major flaws. I think word of mouth does a lot too.

Ron I think you're confusing Thesis or the central question. What a play is about, with concept musical. You say a concept musical is based on some "concept" of what the piece is about. There isn't a real musical out there that isn't about SOMETHING. Your def. would make every single show a concept musical. A CHorus Line is about the struggles of dancers and how they deal with their lives as gypsies. That's not what makes it a concept musical. it's concept because it's a bunch of interviews with no A-D plot.
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 02:28 AM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 2:55am

I AM saying that every musical is a concept musical. Here are two dictionary definitions for concept:

A general idea derived or inferred from specific instances or occurrences.

A scheme; a plan

First of all, I think the first definition could be applied to both "thesis" and "central question". Concept musicals start out with just a concept, but they ultimately end up with a thesis. Anyway, right there we have a problem. So is a concept musical a concept musical because it is a musical about an idea, or is a concept musical a concept musical because it is framed by specific devices? What musical isn't about ideas? What musical doesn't tell its story through devices? I don't think the second definition is enough to constitute calling something a concept musical (because then Company is not a concept musical as the only "scheme" in question is using music to comment on the action, and all musicals do that). It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the show has a nonlinear plot. In fact, the first definition demands that if it does not at least have a plot, it has elements that suggest detail, idea, etc. It does not matter if it's in a linear fashion (West Side Story, Fiddler on the Roof) or not.

It only has to come back to the idea. I think the term is only useful for classifying which shows are overt about it (or even more skillfully wrought).

Last, it doesn't hold up about The Lion King being invalidated because it recycles material or because it is based on something else. Everything has a source, particularly musicals (most of which are based on something else, be it movies or what have you). The Lion King extends the original material, manipulates it, adds to it, and presents it in a totally fresh and interesting way.

Is Follies only a spectacle? It's huge, and it has an incredibly flawed book.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:12am

Well, I didn't purposely bring up Wicked - please don't think that my only knowledge of theater lies within that show - ha. I just brought it up because its a show everyone is familiar with. I think the large sets and whatnot, enhance the score. If you listen to the opening notes, I mean its a big show. It could not be down in a small little black box. I don't think they purposely set out to make it as big as possible. I also don't think they were trying to hide any of the flaws. I mean they took a risk adapting a very lengthy book, and I think, if you consider the show in it of itself, its a great evening of theater and everyone that I've "exposed" to Wicked has become just as enthralled with it. I remember, I was watching some clip of it online and my mom walked in, and the next week she said to me "I was looking for Wicked Cd at Walmart, but I couldn't find it. I really wanna play it at the office."

I, for one, don't think Fiddler is the best example because I can't see it as a concept musical. It has too much plot for me. I think Assassians is the best example to use because of its lack of plot. Its not a "song cycle" because there is a connection of characters and whatnot, but there is no overall driving force to the piece. The audience isn't waiting in anticipation as to what is going to happen.

I kind of get ticked when people toss out a musical because its based on a previous movie or book. I think a good musical takes a source and reinvents it. I think DRS is a great example. It just enhances the movie even more. As does Piazza. People tend to just focus on the negatives of things, instead of the positives. For every show that fails or flops, there's always a hit.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:13am

Yeah, but Follies is not about the spectacle. That was Hal Prince and Michael Bennett's vision of the show, but the show's focus is not on the spectacle. I bet you when people leave Follies, the first thing they say is not "Did you see all those amazing costumes?" but they will most likely discuss the use of the young leads or Sondheim's mind-blowing score, etc. When someone leaves Phantom (I know this by experience) they usually say: "Wow, the chandelier was amazing" or if they leave The Lion King the talk is about Tamor's great idea of puppets but nobody bothers to think about the score or the themes. Wicked is a whole different monster, it's a big spectacle, big flaws in terms of book and score, and yet for some reason it works on the stage.
I agree that you can't call a musical a concept musical because it has a concept or a theme, I mean is the revival of Sweeney a concept musical? I've always looked at Sweeney as an opera but I don't know. The Lion King is not a concept musical but more a book musical with a directional concept.
I don't think a show needs to have a non-linear plot to be a concept musical. I think the songs need to have a Brechtian quality and comment on the action on the stage instead of helping to develop the plot. As this discussions has evolved, I see Nine more as a concept musical now. I just think the binaries are too confusing. I mentioned Spelling Bee as a concept musical because songs like "The I Love You Song" or "My Friend, the Dictionary" are just there to tell us about the characters but the songs could be taken out and the plot would be intact.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:18am

You've either twisted or misunderstood some of the things I've said. Lion King is more than just source material. I said nothing about it being based on something. It is a copy. It has lifted word for word in some cases from the film. It has entire songs from the film. Thats just one example. Both Beauty and the Beast and Tarzan are the same way. I was commenting on the sense of familiarity that people want in shows. "let's go see the ABBA show or the Lion King I love that movie". That's the problem. The score to the Lion King is anything but fresh. It hasn't extended or manipulated anything. It is essentially a live version of the film. THe only thing fresh about the Lion King is it's use of puppetry which i totally acknowledge as brilliant on Julie Taymor's part. I said that much before.


I really feel your definition for concept musicals is a bit flawed too. All musicals can't possibly be concept musicals or else there would have been no reason to create the term concept musical. The term isn't based solely on the dictionary defintion. It is qualified by what a traditional musical was. if you look at Love Life and Allegro and ask What makes them concept, you'll see that it isn't simply an idea or a scheme. Then Finian's Rainbow, Carousel, Showboat, Oklahoma are all concept musicals. The thing that sets apart Love Life and Allegro is the non-linear story telling. That's something people have been writing about since they came on the scene. That definition isn't a new one and it certainly isn't mine. That's just theatrical history. I dont think you can qualify a musical as a concept musical or not simply by 2 songs. Like a said before all songs comment on the action or character in some way.
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 03:18 AM

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:22am

But Jazzysuite, what would you say about Chicago or Kiss of the Spider Woman then? Chicago is argued to be a concept musical revolving around the metaphor of America being based on show business, and Kiss of the Spider Woman has a linear plot but the songs often interrupt the plot instead of advancing it and yet they are essential to the musical's themes. Would you argue that these shows are not concept musicals merely because they have a linear plot?

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:22am

I think most of the score for Spelling Bee could be taken out and you'd still get the overall effect of the show. When I said "concept" before I was referrring to a directorial concept. I think Sweeny def. fits into that cateogory. It was def. one person's vision.

I think we're getting confused with the term "concept." People apply that to a show that has a certain vision - I.E. the Sweeny revival - but a "concept musical" is a totally different idea.

JazzySuite, I also agree with you on the Lion King, etc. I saw the show and why it was visually pleasing, I didn't feel anything after the show. I didn't feel any emotional impact or anything, same with Phantom.

EDIT: I just found my notes. The term is the "dramatic question" - which is the overall question that is suppose to be answer at the end of the show. I.E. With Glass Menagerie it would be something like "Will Tom leave?" Or "Will Laura find a man" or something like that. Updated On: 1/20/06 at 03:22 AM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:26am

Sweeney Todd isn't an opera. Perhaps an operetta but not an opera. Operas are deeply in love with the sound of the human voice and Sweeney Todd has words and a story. Everything functions to get ideas across to the audience. There are no long notes sung on the word The.

Night Music is probably the closest he ever got to operetta, I think (He suggests it's an operetta). Some of it is slightly superfluous.

I disagree about Follies. I think the main reason a lot of people remember Follies so fondly is because of the huge spectacle it was back in the day, which can never be reproduced. I mean, even the casting was spectacle (the casting was literal). The devices in Follies are cool but not really novel, and the book is kind of vapid. The score is absolutely amazing, yes, but a lot of people walked out thinking it sounded corny and old fashioned. Now, in retrospect, time has given us a new opinion on the music. But it undeniably was an amazing song and dance show with some damn fine spectacle, which is probably why it ran for as long as it did despite baffling and depressing audiences.

Yes, people walk out of Phantom talking about the chandelier, but they also walk out singing the tunes because the tunes have been driven into their head. A lot of people think Phantom of the Opera is actually an opera.

Which is amazing. I'm just saying, lots of weird things endear shows to audiences.

I think Fiddler is one of the best examples of a concept musical. Every song and every scene in the show adds to the concept, which is Tradition, and the main theme is often repeated. All of the characters are concerned with it. It's a beautifully well written, intelligent, and thought provoking show.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:31am

yeah I think the term concept is being used in different ways. I think structural concept is different than directorial concept. Personally Chicago and Kiss are not structural concept musicals. It hink they're directorial concepts. They both have a number of songs that enhance the plot. If you look at Oklahoma, the dream ballet really doesn't enhance the plot. This dilemma that Laurey has is something that she's always had and you can see that withough the ballet. That doesn't make it a concept musical. The title song oklahoma does nothing for the plot. I don't consider it a concept musical.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:34am

I would argue that Fiddler is not using concept, but rather a theme. The theme of the show is tradition. The entire opening sequence explains the show's theme and whatnot.

True, I agree with you on Phantom also, that people fall in the love with the score. I mean, my brother - the most non-musical theater lover - bought the soundtrack to the movie and bought the DVD and watches it constantly. I don't even like it that much. I get kind of perturbed with Cameron Mackintosh and Webber - I mean at least Webber has done some more artsy type theater with Beautiful Game. He tried to wrtie a legit show that didn't relie on anything - even Women in White relies on the sets to an exstent. I mean if Cameron mackintosh loved theater so much why doesn't he produce shows that are being experimental and are really good shows they just need some kind of backing (I.E. Bare) instead of proudcing shows that he knows will just make him more money. He's got enough $ to last him a lifetime and then some.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:39am

Sondheim has indeed said that he modeled A Little Night Of Music as an operetta but at the same time commenting on the genre. Sweeney Todd is indeed a musical, but I see it more as an opera because the score and the characters are too larger-than-life for a musical; Sondheim has often said that he envisioned it as an opera but then realized it needed to be a musical. It's the same idea behind Passion, I think, Fosca is obviously an operatic character but the show is a musical.
I agree that Fiddler is definitely a concept musical because everything that happens in the show relates back to Tradition. I like the distinction Jazzysuite made between concept musical and a director's approach to telling a story, I'm not sure I totally agree with the idea that Chicago and Kiss of the Spider Woman are not concept musicals but I do like your argument a lot, Jazzysuite.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 3:43am

I remember SOndheim saying that both Night Music and Sweeney Todd are operettas as he wrote them. He also says that they are called musicals are operas depending on where they are performed (opera house vs. Theatre). He has said that typing a piece is depending on the audience's expectations. At the Met Sweeney is an opera. At the O'Neill it's a musical.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 4:06am

Exactly, although apparently opera singers don't like singing it.

Sondheim says he doesn't really like opera and isn't really interested in writing opera. Hal Prince wants him to write one.

You are right, Oklahoma is not a concept musical, I was just pointing out that it does have concepts. As for the whole directorial conceit thing, well, that's what I'm saying... sometimes a show actually has concepts that it revolves around, and sometimes it's just directorial conceit (Cabaret, West Side Story, A Chorus Line). A Chorus Line blends it a lot, but the show was built from the ground up.

Rentboy, I think Cameron Mackintosh is sort of the Abbot of our generation. He knows what works and he makes money doing it. I'm curious though, can you tell me the differences between a theme and a concept? I believe the words are synonymous.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 4:03pm

Well, I know i'm the odd man out here, but I still Fiddler on the Roof deals with a "theme" rather than a overall concept. Like, in the new revival I think the minimulist setting is its "concept" (not calling it a concept musical, but rather that directors vision) and the theme of the show - which will never change due to the material - is tradition.

I also heard that Sondheim didn't write Sunset Blvd because someone told him it would work best as an opera and he didn't want to write an opera. I'm kind of glad he didnt because i love ALW's score.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 4:52pm

The difference between theme and concept is the difference between What and how. The theme is what the show is about. The concept (whether it be dirctorial or structural) is how that theme is executed. I don't think they are synonymous.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 5:49pm

Agreed Jazzysuite, that's sorta what i was trying to convey. So, would you still say Fiddler is a "concept show" or rather a show with a theme of tradition?

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 6:09pm

I still believe Fiddler on the Roof is a concept musical because everything revolves around the concept of tradition, just like every song in Company was designed to comment on marriage.
I have also heard that Sondheim believes Sweeney is an opera when performed at an opera house and a musical if performed at a theatre, makes sense to me.
Rentboy, Billy Wilder (writer,director of Sunset Blvd.) did tell the movie could only work as an opera because Norma Desmond is an opera character. I still would have loved to hear what Sondheim could have done with the movie, Andrew Lloyd Webber's score is great at times (With One Look,As If We Never Said Goodbye), but he fails to write an ultimately breath-taking score, he is also unable to effectively portray Norma's insanity. If someone can show madness through music is Mr.Sondheim.
Back to Nine, any thoughts?

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 6:39pm

LoL True.

I'm interest in Nine now. I think i'll have to buy a copy of the revival CD this weekend. I'm still not sold on Fiddler, but I'm sorta easying into it.