Nine,the musical: A Discussion

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:38am

This is my first post on this site. Read the FAQ, tried using the search featured, didn't find a thread on this topic, so I hope this hasn't been discussed before.
I recently bought the cast recording of the 2003 revival of Nine. I fell in love with the score and the story right away and regret not having seen it on Broadway before it closed. I am trying to get my hands on the film 8 1/2 to get the bigger picture though.
I'm reading a book by Scott Miller titled "From Assassins to West Side Story," and he mentions Nine as a concept musical. Is Nine really considered a concept musical? From the score and the synopsis I don't really qualify it as a concept musical, at least not one in the lines of Pacific Overtures, Company, and (to a point) Cabaret. I wanted to know what your thoughts were on this idea, and if anyone has seen the show, I'd love it if they can clarify this a bit.
Updated On: 1/24/06 at 12:38 AM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:42am

Pacific Overtures isn't a concept musical as I understand it, neither is Caberet. Concept musical has to do with the concept of linear writing in plot. A happens which leads to B which leads to C. That's traditional theatre. Concept musicals are they absence of that. Company is a concept musical because there is no linear plot. It deals with people and vingettes and certain circumstances. First Lady Suite is another one. The first concept musical was written my Kurt Weill. the next big one was Company. That opened the doors to sooo much. Which is why it's important.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:48am

Cabaret is half-concept musical. Hal Prince obviously was still toying with the idea that he fully developed in Company. This is obviously just my thoughts on this show, but I've often argued that Cabaret is half-concept, half-book. Pacific Overtures does not revolve around a storyline but around the idea of the West taking over the Japanase culture, therefore, I think it should be considered a concept musical. The songs are not used in the Rodgers and Hammerstein tradition but to comment on the action. That's why I see Nine more as a book musical, but I do see why it could be argued that it's a concept musical.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:49am

The more you know the less you know...

See this re "concept musical":

http://www.musicals101.com/1970bway3.htm

and:

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558878_4/Musical.html

There's a chunk of reading for tonight!

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:55am

Have you ever seen pacific Overtures? There's def a plot going on here. I could lay out the plot for you if you'd like. It's def not a concept musical. The western invasion of Japan is the subject, not the type of show. There's a def storyline that followa Manjiro and Kayama and what the japanese do to try to get the westerners out.


nomdeplume, WSS is HARDLY a concept musical. I dunno where this online "encyclopedia" got it's info, but it doesn't even talk about concept musicals. IT talks about the start of the director/choreographer not concept musicals. Updated On: 1/20/06 at 12:55 AM

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:55am

Wow, thanks. I was not aware some critics considered West Side Story a concept musical. Very interesting.

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 12:57am

de nada, enchilada

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:00am

WSS isn't a concept musical. I'm not sure what critics said, but you can't go by Encarta. There's a section where you can edit it as you please. It doesn't seem like it's from a source who's reliable.
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:00 AM

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:02am

The problem is, whose definition of concept.

Who owns the definition?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:03am

I'm assuming peopel who coined the term. What whoeever wrote that article fails to note is that the concept musical began with a little known piece by Weill.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:04am

I hate the term concept musical. I find it facile. It doesn't accomplish anything to classify Fiddler on the Roof and Company as the same kind of musical.

Concept musicals are supposedly fashioned around a single main idea. All "concept musicals" must be classified as such in total disregard to other important aspects of the shows.

Case in point, how do you classify Nine as either? There's not really a story in the traditional sense, but only a conflict (or several). So is it a traditional musical? Will Guido make his movie/Will Guido's wife leave him? But then on the other hand, there is the deal about all of the things taking place in Guido's imagination, and telling the story of why Guido is who he is. So Guido is at the heart of the story, it is a story about Guido. Can Guido necessarily be a adequate concept instead of a character study? And the musical takes great pains to at least begin to tell us the stories of the girls in his life.

Is the concept movie making? I mean, a concept is basically a thesis statement, right? Movie making isn't a thesis statement.

I'm just saying. Concepts always inform any piece of art. Damn Yankees has a concept: the Faustian deal and its ramifications. The King and I is informed by concepts. What isn't? Just some musicals are more overt about it. Supposedly Follies is supposed to be about the crumbling American dream. I'm not sure about that, but hey, there's the concept that's supposedly at the center. You won't really find it baldly stated anywhere in there though.

I think concept musical is just a simple term for fancy storytelling and thematic reasoning.

BTW, welcome to the board. Nine is one of my all time favorite musicals. There are my thoughts :P I discovered Nine right after the revival closed as well. Tears.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:07am

I was not aware people could edit encarta. Jazzysuite, completely agree with you about Weill and let's not forget about Brecht who pretty much set a lot of the theater concepts used in concept musicals today. West Side Story doesn't look like a concept musical to me, I don't think Sondheim himself sees it as a concept musical, from what I read it is considered by some to be a dance musical though.
Thanks for the ideas on Nine, I just think the songs do not have a Brechtian quality to them like the songs in Company. Yet, it does have some similarities to Company in terms of the concept. I don't know. The score is so brilliant. Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:07 AM

[nomdeplume]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:10am

Well, I tell ya. Scholars will fight over every nit-picky thing and grant the term to whoever they prefer to define it. That's all beyond me.

The problem is, for a sensible message board discussion on the topic you have to define your term first and then go with that or it gets unwieldy.

That is just my two cents and frankly, I'm confused enough between the ideas of "concept" and "conceit" which I think essentially mean the same thing (as in the director's "conceit" for the show") to then, try to move from there to deciding if a musical is a "concept" musical. I mean it better have a concept or it's dead in the water as I use the term, which doesn't hang on whether it is linear or not.

I mean, hey, Shakespeare broke up linear for us. No one had to go that route after him with scenes that jump in time and place.

Onwards in your quest, folks. Here I take my bow...
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:10 AM

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:10am

Ron, I think to a point you are correct. NOW the term concept musical seems very dated. There is so much new and different theatre. But when 1948 hit after the likes of Oklahoma and Finian's Rainbow came out, a musical with no plot was sort of different. It wasn't the Zeigfeld Follies. It was dealing with a conflict a situation. It was storytelling with no plot. There was no linear motion. It was episodic. Same with Company. There's a difference between the progression of scenes there and in the King and I. I think Concept musical was created by necessity because those musicals weren't "traditional". Now very little is traditional. The real question is is there a plot or no. That will make the difference I think.
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:10 AM

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:14am

I don't think the existence of a plot is the difference really. Some people I have talked to seem to agree that the Fosse Cabaret film is a concept musical, it does have a plot, but the songs are not necessarily part of the plot but rather comment on it. I would say that perhaps a concept musical is a show where you can take the songs out and the plot will remain intact but the themes won't make any sense. I don't think this applies to every concept musical though. I understand to explain art in terms of binaries is not wise, but Scott Miller saying that Nine is a concept musical just like Company sort of threw me off.

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:21am

Which is exactly why I feel that the term is a little outdated. I personally wouldn't call Cabaret or Chicago a concept musical. I think they both sort of do the same thing, but they are not concept musicals the way A Chorus Line is.

[Doogie]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:27am

Well, here's my rule of thumb with a concept musical: If someone asks what its about, and you can answer it in a single sentence and thats all there is to it, its a concept musical.

For example:

Q: What is Oklahoma about?
A: Two people who fall in love.
That doesn't quite answer the whole plot of the show.

Q: What is Company about?
A: A single thirty five year old man looking for love and grappling with commitment issues.
That pretty much sums it up.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:30am

I have to disagree though. Using your example, if someone asks me what Company is about I'd say: it's about marriage in Manhattan, that's how I know it's a concept musical. If they ask me what Wicked is about I'd say: it's the story behind the Wicked Witch of the West and her friendship with Glinda, that's plot not theme. So I'd say that if you can say what a show is about in terms of themes (i.e-marriage) instead of explaining plot, you can say it's a concept musical, but this is further complicated by other musicals as well.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:31am

Odd that we're discussing this, I'm currently reading "Deconstructing Harold Hill" by Scott Miller and one of the chapters is dedicated to CHICAGO. And within the chapter, they discuss the "concept musical." According to the book, "most shows people call concept musicals are musicals built on a central concept or issue instead of a linear story, musicals that have a story but whose central concept is more important than the story, musical character studies with no plot (A Chorus Line - though I'm not sure I agree with that), or musicals that just don't fit into any other category.
He then says that the first concept musical was "Love Life" in 1948. He also says Pippin, Assassians, and Follies are concept musicals.
I think the idea of the concept musical is most prominent in Assassians. There really is no plot to this musical. In my play analysis class we learned about someting - I can't remember the actual name, took the class a while ago - about like the "central question" of a show. In Assassians, I don't think there really is a central question. Its just more about these different presidental assissians singing and explaining their cases. I think that's a great example of one.
I think the idea of a concept musical gets a little foggy with Chicago. It does have a "concept" as we like to think of the show because its done as a Vaudeville, but it does have a story - What will happen to Roxie? But, its done in such a nonlinear form because of the vauldville style, with ppl just randomly singing here and there (i.e. Cell Block Tango).
I've read a book on WSS and I'm not sure I'd consider that to be a concept musical in the least bit. It def. has a story and the songs help to advance the plot.
Can anyone think of any contemporary concept musicals? Are there any?

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:37am

Well sure there are. Hedwig is a big one. LaChiusa's also big on the concept musical. Hello Again, First Lady Suite, Little Fish are all concept musicals.

I'm not sure about the central question you speak of. Is that the thesis of the piece?


PS I just looked at the title of this thread. COncept musicals have books.
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:37 AM

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:39am

Rentboy, "Deconstructing Harold Hill" is a great book, I read that before "From Assassins to West Side Story," I really like Scott Miller's analysis although I disagree with a lot of his arguments. I'd say that Avenue Q is obviously influenced by the concept musical and yet it isn't quite there, some of my theater friends have argued with me that it is actually a concept musical, but I don't think it reaches the status yet. I'd consider the Spelling Bee Contest a concept musical because the score serves to comment on the characters and the action.

[FoscasBohemianDream]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:40am

Jazzysuite, in the title I didn't mean to say that concept musicals don't have books, but they are not considered book musicals. A book musical is pretty much the definition of a Rodgers & Hammerstein show.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:40am

I suppose, but I think back in the day people threw around terms of definition less since they were in the process of defining it. Now, as we look back on these shows and attempt to define the artform, we tend to get nostalgic about certain things, placing blame and or credit haphazardly. What about Oscar Hammerstein II and Allegro? Weill and Brecht? It's just that people expected musicals to solely entertain them for a long time (If you read the NYTimes review of the original Gypsy, available archived on their website, you'll see that the reviewer is impressed with the flashy bits of the show but disappointed by its attempts to dig deeper. Not that she/he thinks it fails to do so or anything, she/he just didn't want the play to do that. Unless I'm misreading. Of course she/he also misuses a french term).

The musical and the play are linked because they developed side by side, and you can see attempts by the musical to dig deeper all along the way, it just took a really, really long time to start getting appreciated for it. I think directors who might otherwise not be interested are more attracted to the experimental side of musical theater that involves more than just staging characters in between choreographed dances.

Also, Oklahoma came out in the early 40s. West Side Story premiered in the mid 50s. If those are the benchmarks, that's like 15 years of book theater. It really took them no time at all to start tinkering with the way things were done, which had only recently been invented by one guy who was being imitated by all the other popular songwriters who were suddenly not popular songwriters anymore. That's not much in the large scale of things.

I think it's funny how we tend to feel as if we are at the end of musical theater. I mean, really, a century or so isn't a very long time for an artform to last, especially when it only had any kind of prominence for a short number of years. It's sad to think that. That's why I get really wary of those schlocky nostalgic shows that feel like parodies of themselves. I mean, come on, the genre has to offer more than self parody. Opera still takes itself seriously, even if not many are writing for it anymore.

Blame it all on television!

[Jazzysuite82]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:41am

See I wouldn't call Bee a concept musical. Every score serves to comment on the characters and action. That's just musical theatre. I think Bee's got a linear plot you follow along with. Who's gonna win that Bee?

Actually the time line is shorter. Hammerstein and Weill were tinkering with the form long before WSS. Love Life was 48 and Allegro was 47
Updated On: 1/20/06 at 01:41 AM

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 1/20/06 at 1:55am

Yeah, I mentioned Allegro and I said "If those are the benchmarks". That's kind of what I'm saying about people generalizing. Yes, West Side Story may be a pioneer concept musical, but it wasn't the first one and it's not even a very good example (what in West Side Story comments on itself beyond some self conscious writing?). I think Allegro, having an actual Greek chorus, is a much better example.

I agree about Bee btw. Unless the concept is spelling bees? :P