Plot holes in good musicals- Page 2

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 8:58pm

I never considered the Clock Dragon a "plot hole" or something glaring that needed to be explained. I always just thought it was a cool set piece that winks to the audience members who've read the book, but otherwise has no bearing on the plot. It adds atmosphere to the clocklike designs around the stage.

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 08:58 PM

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 9:18pm

RE: Wicked

He seems like a shady dude but maybe the Wizard only slept with one woman. Or only one woman fell for his lines. Or he slept with other women and none of them got pregnant because of complicated fertility issues that are not worth getting into. It only takes one time but that doesn't mean every time takes.

I only recently discovered there's a third book so maybe that will finally answer why she has magical powers. It feels like other people are capable of doing magic but she's the most powerful and successful at harnessing her abilities unlike Nessa and Glinda.

The revolution part doesn't make a lot of sense without the secret society stuff in the book since in the musical it feels like everyone who isn't a named character hates Elphaba.

"Why didn't the Wizard just use birds instead of needlessly putting wings on monkeys?" Lol

"How did they know Dorothy would throw a bucket of water on her as she was standing on that trapdoor?" Dunno. Maybe she knew someone would tell Dorothy about the water and she was determined to stay standing over that trap door until it happened. It's not like they came with other weapons she would need to dodge in the meantime.

[VintageSnarker]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 9:33pm

I don't think there as many plot holes in musicals as much as coincidences/things that are convenient for the plot.

Like in Show Boat, if Steve loves Julie so much and knew about her racial background the whole time, why does he leave her? And where does she go after she conveniently disappears so Nola can take her job?

And it's an awful coincidence in Anastasia that Gleb and Anya have that meet cute. And that his dad participated in the murders. And that Dmitry is friends with Vlad who happens to have an in with Sophie. And that their affair somewhat mirrors the class dynamic between Anya and Dmitry. And that Anya and Dmitry happened to lock eyes in a crowd as children. (The movie was better.)

Not that coincidences are bad. Sweeney Todd has a lot of coincidences but they feel like tight plotting and like they relate to the themes of the play and echo the conventions of the gothic novel/penny dreadful form.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 9:46pm

I can see how the planning played out.

Fiyero: So you know there are rumors that you'll melt if you get wet?

Elphaba: Really now!

Fiyero: I know! Ridiculous right? That's what I told Galinda I mean Glinda. Anyway, go to my family's castle...btw where have you been staying at this whole time? A cave?

Elphaba: I don't want to talk about it.

Fiyero: Oh ok...anyway, there's a trap door on blah blah blah floor by the corridor leading to the utility closet. I'll some how get that Dorothy girl to come to the castle and you keep her hostage.

Elphaba: Wait...what!

Fiyero: Hear me out! Dorothy has your sister's silver/ruby slippers!

Elphaba: Wait, she didn't die yet and we have no idea that Morrible would make that tornado that some how went through another dimension and picked up a random house in Kansas (how do I know that word) and have it transport into our dimension and aim it directly on my sister's house in a way where her feet are exposed and her slippers are still in what Amazon.com would call "very good" condition...btw did you know she can change the weather? With those powers and her ruthless ambition, you'd think she'd be putting herself up as the Wizard....

Fiyero: Yeah yeah, and you haven't turned me into a Scarecrow yet by chanting some language you never read before and we haven't met since I became a Scarecrow and tagged along with Dorothy....

Elphaba: Well, in the movie I threw that fireball at you...maybe we met some time afterwards in secret.

Fiyero: Yeah, that's what we did. Anyway...Dorothy will be ordered to go to the castle, and not only do you take her hostage and say you want the slippers, but make her scrub the floors.

Elphaba: Make her scrub the floors?

Fiyero: Yeah, with water...and then you antagonize her so much that she'll lose her temper and throw that bucket of water on you. Just make sure you stand on top of the trap door and get one of your flying monkey slaves to activate it.

Elphaba: They're not my slaves...

Fiyero: Yeah...sure...anyway...and then word will spread that you melted and everyone will think you're dead and then we run away together.

Elphaba: Wow, this plan needs a lot of factors to come into play for it to work, but ok. Wait, what about my activism and fighting for Animal rights?

Fiyero: You sang a whole song about no longer doing good deeds and only looking out for yourself remember?

Elphaba: That hasn't happened yet!

Fiyero: Oh yeah. Oh well.

Elphaba: Wait, how can we be together and live a quiet live when you're a talking scarecrow and I'm still totally recognizable as the Wicked Witch of the West and have green skin that NOBODY else in this world has and the word of my evil deeds and looks has been spread throughout the land?

Fiyero: We'll go to some other place outside of Oz where we can just be together where they never heard of you. 

Elphaba: Why can't we just do that now? Why do I have to pretend to be melted and stuff? 

Fiyero: Because then they'll come looking for you.

Elphaba: But these people are still going to travel and see a green skin lady and word will spread town to town that a green skin lady is hiding out in the woods near their town...and it'll reach Oz.

Fiyero: It's ok, when you "die" Glinda will take over Oz and banish the Wizard forever. 

Elphaba: But I will tell Glinda to keep as as Public Enemy No. 1 just so Ozians will have something to unite against and she can use that to her advantage to help the disenfranchised so when people inevitably will see me with my talking scarecrow spouse, I'll still be the Wicked green lady.

Fiyero: Listen just do it, the audience at the Gershwin will eat it up.

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 10:45pm

Now a real plot hole that has always bugged me (though it's not in a "good" show) is the entirety of "Do Me a Favor" in the original production of Carrie. Chris spends the entire song plotting to get revenge on Carrie for going to the prom, only Carrie doesn't get asked or agree to go until the end of the song.

(Just one of many things that really didn't make sense about that show)

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 10:51pm

Elfuhbuh said: "I never considered the Clock Dragon a "plot hole" or something glaring that needed to be explained. I always just thought it was a cool set piece that winks to the audience members who've read the book, but otherwise has no bearing on the plot. It adds atmosphere to the clocklike designs around the stage."

Yes, but it is the first thing that happens during the show, so you don't know that it has nothing to do with the show or have any bearing, until it just never comes up again. I'll concede it is merely bad storytelling, if people are getting tripped up on it not being a plot hole, heh.

[Bell0708]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 11:28pm

ScottyDoesn'tKn, ow2 said: "What is the green elixer in Wicked? How does the wizard really know Elphaba is his daughter? I mean how many women did he sell that green elixer too? How did they know that one random woman he had sex with actually resulted in pregnancy? How many women did the Wizard sleep with and why did only Elphaba's mom get pregnant? What's the logic behind Elphaba being born of a woman from Oz and a man from...I'll just say Earth....mean she's powerful? What other kinds of magic did other people possess? How many people were in on the Wizard's plans? How does magic work in the world of Wicked? How many people are born with powers? Why did Glinda seem so powerless in the beginning? Did she never have magic at all? What was that floating bubble? How does Elphaba cast that monkey wing spell when by reading a language she never saw before in her life and that nobody else knows how to read? How did she start a revolution with almost no allies and support? Did she end up enslaving those flying monkeys? Why didn't the Wizard just use birds instead of needlessly putting wings on monkeys? Were mammals the only animals talking in that world? Did the characters in Wicked eat meat? If so, which animals were off limits and which ones were they given free reign to farm and slaughter? What did Nessa actually do as the Wicked Witch of the East? Did she have any power or jurisdiction to enforce laws? How was Madame Morrible able to play second in command at Oz and run Shiz? Elphaba clearly didn't know what she was reading when she was trying to protect Fiyero from dying as she screams in that horrible song, but how did she know that was the right page? For all she knew, she was reading a spell about how to transfigure a goblet into a mouse. What really was Glinda's motivation and what was she actually capable of doing with a wand? Why was Glinda so glib about Nessa's death? Why was Elphaba blind to Nessa's supposed reign of tyranny? Why didn't Elphaba need a wand when Glinda did? Why is it better for the Ozians to not know that their Wizard was corrupt and that Elphaba wasn't actually wicked? That was never explained. What did Elphaba actually do in Oz after Defying Gravity? All I know is that she just sat around cackling and scaring little girls from Kansas and then keep her restrained in her castle and forced her to clean the floor. How did Elphaba and Fiyero come up with that escape plan? How did they know Dorothy would throw a bucket of water on her as she was standing on that trapdoor? How did that trap door activate? What's going to happen to her flying monkey minions and guards? Is she going to give up her activism now? How can she and Fiyero live anonymous lives as he's a walking/talking Scarecrow and Elphaba is still green and thus recognizable? What the hell is up with that dragon?"

I love Wicked, but it's got more potholes than Swiss cheese!  Just curious did u need a nap after posting this?

[RippedMan]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 11:43pm

DEH suuuuuuucks #nofurthercomment 

[Solipsist234]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 12:06am

AEA AGMA SM said: "Now a real plot hole that has always bugged me (though it's not in a "good" show) is the entirety of "Do Me a Favor" inthe original production ofCarrie. Chris spends the entire song plotting to get revenge on Carrie for going to the prom, only Carrie doesn't get asked or agree to go until the end of the song.

(Just one of many things that really didn't make sense about that show)"

For this plot hole, you have to think in terms of the original Stephen King novel and the 1976 Brian De Palma film. Why does Chris want to do this exactly? Well, she blames Carrie for the reason why she can't go to the prom. I don't know if it is outright said in the musical (especially in Do Me a Favor), but Chris just wants to get revenge. I'm assuming she found out about Tommy taking Carrie to the prom somehow (Tommy is supposedly very popular), and that's why in the opening of Act II in both versions, it features Chris and Billy getting the pig's blood (which was apparently, according to the creators of the original 1988 disaster, a great way to open Act II, i.e. singing a song about killing a pig and getting its blood) That's just my two cents!

Also, I don't think the musical ever brings up the fact that Chris and her friend Norma were the ringleaders in stuffing the Prom King and Queen ballot box with fake ballots. That was a very pivotal part in Chris' plan to get revenge on Carrie! Oh well...

[gypsy101]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 3:54am

that thing about the wizard staying “the good guy” really just has to do with propoganda. they basically don’t want social upheaval that may come from such a reveal.

[Fan123]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 5:33am

VintageSnarker said: "And it's an awful coincidence in Anastasia that Gleb and Anya have that meet cute. And that his dad participated in the murders. And that Dmitry is friends with Vlad who happens to have an in with Sophie. And that their affair somewhat mirrors the class dynamic between Anya and Dmitry. And that Anya and Dmitry happened to lock eyes in a crowd as children. (The movie was better.)

Not that coincidences are bad. Sweeney Todd has a lot of coincidences but they feel like tight plotting and like they relate to the themes of the play and echo the conventions of the gothic novel/penny dreadful form."

Not only that, but the fact that the random woman whom some con artists hire to impersonate Anastasia, turns out to be the real Anastasia, is a bit of a leap too :) I agree though that some huge coincidences are just necessary so that plots can exist.

Speaking of 'Anastasia', although somebody who has seen the show kindly provided me with some more context about this on another thread, it still seems weird to me that - from what I hear - (spoiler?) Anya has long known she has diamonds sewn into her clothing, but she remains an impoverished street-sweeper/similar for years until the plot requires her to use them in some practical way.

As for 'Sweeney Todd', the only one that annoys me is that Sweeney returns to the exact same address and profession as 'Benjamin Barker', and the Judge and Beadle still take forever to wonder whether it might somehow be the same guy.

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 6:27am

LuminousBeing said: "poisonivy2 said: "Not really a plot hole but I always wondered how Eliza in the midst of all that was happening picked up the "27-A Wimpole St." address and what's more, was able to get there with no issues the very next morning. How could she afford the taxi?"

She could afford the taxi because Henry put a lot of money into her basket when she kicked it to him, saying, " 'ere, take the 'ole bloomin' basket for a sixpence!"

I totally believe that someone who hustles like Eliza does has thehypervigilance skills to hear where Henry lives (he didn't exactly whisper it to Pickering), especially since she must know London very well."

People also had better short term memories for things like addresses, meeting spots, locations etc in that period. We are so used to saying ‘I’ll google it’ or making an instant note in the iPhone that we have lost some of that skill. Watch enough period films/plays and someone remembering an address just from hearing it, is commonplace. It’s just as alien to us as ‘look me up, I’m in the book’

[Loopin’theloop]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 6:29am

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "I can see how the planning played out.

Fiyero: So you know there are rumors that you'll melt if you get wet?

Elphaba: Really now!

Fiyero: I know! Ridiculous right? That's what I told Galinda I mean Glinda. Anyway, go to my family's castle...btw where have you been staying at this whole time? A cave?

Elphaba: I don't want to talk about it.

Fiyero: Oh ok...anyway, there's a trap door on blah blah blah floor by the corridor leading to the utility closet. I'll some how get that Dorothy girl to come to the castle and you keep her hostage.

Elphaba: Wait...what!

Fiyero: Hear me out! Dorothy has your sister's silver/ruby slippers!

Elphaba: Wait, she didn't die yet and we have no idea that Morrible wouldmakethat tornado that some how went through another dimension and picked up a random house in Kansas (how do I know that word) and have it transport into our dimension and aim it directly on my sister's house in a way where her feet are exposed and her slippers are still in what Amazon.com would call "very good" condition...btw did you know she can change the weather? With those powers and her ruthless ambition, you'd think she'd be putting herself up as the Wizard....

Fiyero: Yeah yeah, and you haven't turned me into a Scarecrow yet by chanting some language you never read before and we haven't met since I became a Scarecrow and tagged along with Dorothy....

Elphaba: Well, in the movie I threw that fireball at you...maybe we met some time afterwards in secret.

Fiyero: Yeah, that's what we did. Anyway...Dorothy will be ordered to go to the castle, and not only do you take her hostage and say you want the slippers, but make her scrub the floors.

Elphaba: Make her scrub the floors?

Fiyero: Yeah, with water...and then you antagonize her so much that she'll lose her temper and throw that bucket of water on you. Just make sure you stand on top of the trap door and get one of your flying monkey slaves to activate it.

Elphaba: They're not my slaves...

Fiyero: Yeah...sure...anyway...and then word will spread that you melted and everyone will think you're dead and then we run away together.

Elphaba: Wow, this plan needs a lot of factors to come into play for it to work, but ok. Wait, what about my activism and fighting for Animal rights?

Fiyero: You sang a whole song about no longer doing good deeds and only looking out for yourself remember?

Elphaba: That hasn't happened yet!

Fiyero: Oh yeah. Oh well.

Elphaba: Wait, how can we be together and live a quiet live when you're a talking scarecrow and I'm still totally recognizable as the Wicked Witch of the West and have green skin that NOBODY else in this world has and the word of my evil deeds and looks has been spread throughout the land?

Fiyero: We'll go to some other place outside of Oz where we can just be together where they never heard of you.

Elphaba: Why can't we just do that now? Why do I have to pretend to be melted and stuff?

Fiyero: Because then they'll come looking for you.

Elphaba: But these people are still going to travel and see a green skin lady and word will spread town to town that a green skin lady is hiding out in the woods near their town...and it'll reach Oz.

Fiyero: It's ok, when you "die" Glinda will take over Oz and banish the Wizard forever.

Elphaba: But I will tell Glinda to keep as as Public Enemy No. 1 just so Ozians will have something to unite against and she can use that to her advantage to help the disenfranchised so when people inevitably will see me with my talking scarecrow spouse,I'll still be the Wicked green lady.

Fiyero: Listen just do it, the audience at the Gershwin will eat it up."

LOVE THIS 

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 9:28am

Not really a plot hole but I always wondered how Eliza in the midst of all that was happening picked up the "27-A Wimpole St." address and what's more, was able to get there with no issues the very next morning. How could she afford the taxi?

Does she even need a taxi?  It's only a 30-minute walk from Covent Garden.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 9:37am

In the film version of Pygmalion, they made it look like Eliza was just having a bit of fun taking a taxi as it's a luxury she rarely gets to use. Plus when she visits Higgins to offer him money for lessons, she tells Mrs. Pearce "Didn't you tell him I've come in a taxi?" as if it was some representation of a higher social status. For people like her, being able to afford a taxi is a big deal and she probably thinks it would make her look good and make Higgins more inclined to take her own as a pupil. Social image is a very big deal.

[(Insert Clever Name)]

Posted: 6/19/18 at 10:36am

dearalanaaaa said: "Dear Evan Hansen...
- Connor Murphys official cause of death and funeral.
- Evan Hansen, his illness sometimes effects him and sometimes it doesn't?
- jumping off meds doesn't harm him in any way
- Alana Beck... She just has too many plot holes.
"

They don't give a cause of death to avoid copycat suicides. He had a funeral as Zoe mentions.

It is plausible that after finding a source of family his anxiety lessened, and would come back up in times of distress or before.

I stopped taking my meds once and nothing happened, as they had stopped working. He probably did go through some kind of withdrawal.

Alana, what plot holes? Honestly, I am curious.