Plot holes in good musicals

[Tim Barstow]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:10pm

 There's only one that I can think of:

In Hamilton, why doesn't Eliza know that Hamilton is attracted to Angelica?

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 05:10 PM

[jpbran]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:15pm

I get the impression she does know, and isn't threatened by it or (outwardly) bothered. 

[bdn223]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:30pm

Clearly the biggest plot hole of all time is musical theater is Who kills Edwin Drood, in The Mystery of Edwin Drood!!

[anislander]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:35pm

I’ve never really understood why after Elphaba says to Glinda, “it isn’t what it looks like” about having a relationship with Fiyero, and Fiyero says “yes it is” (or something along those lines, I’m definitely paraphrasing). The only interaction we saw of Elphaba/Fiyero is with the lion cub and at the train station, and it really doesn’t seem like Fiyero is interested in her at those times.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:45pm

In Hamilton, why doesn't Eliza know that Hamilton is attracted to Angelica?

How is that a plot hole?

[JSquared2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:54pm

Why do complete strangers keep bursting into perfectly harmonized singing??

[Babe_Williams]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:54pm

In Les Miz, everyone runs from Javert out of terror at the beginning of Act 2, but no one (except Gavroche) recognizes him when he shows up as a hastily disguised volunteer.

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 5:57pm

Why does a dragon come to life at the beginning of Wicked and then never come up again... (and if you have to say 'Well, if you read the books, you would know...' that is the definition of a plot hole)

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:00pm

Mister Matt said: "In Hamilton, why doesn't Eliza know that Hamilton is attracted to Angelica?

How isthat a plot hole?"

Because "plot hole" is almost as overused and misused as "snub" around here?

 

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:03pm

Ron Chernow's book will show you just how many plot holes there are in Hamilton...

[AEA AGMA SM]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:06pm

haterobics said: "Why does a dragon come to life at the beginning ofWicked and then never come up again... (and if you have to say 'Well, if you read the books, you would know...' that is the definition of a plot hole)"

I would disagree that an unexplained moment of stagecraft that is only used once is a plot hole. You can argue that it's shoddy story-telling/staging, but it doesn't create a logical impossibility in the story or contradict any other event or moment in the show (which is the definition of a plot hole). 

[haterobics]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:08pm

AEA AGMA SM said: "haterobics said: "Why does a dragon come to life at the beginning ofWicked and then never come up again... (and if you have to say 'Well, if you read the books, you would know...' that is the definition of a plot hole)"

I would disagree that an unexplained moment of stagecraft that is only used once is a plot hole. You can argue that it's shoddy story-telling/staging, but it doesn't create a logical impossibility in the story or contradict any other event or moment in the show (which is the definition of a plot hole)."

I'd argue that if the chandelier at Phantom was auctioned off at the beginning, lifted up above the crowd, and then just stayed there until curtain call, it would be a narrative misstep.

When I saw Wicked, I did wonder when the dragon was going to factor back in... and then the show ended.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:10pm

What is the green elixer in Wicked? How does the wizard really know Elphaba is his daughter? I mean how many women did he sell that green elixer too? How did they know that one random woman he had sex with actually resulted in pregnancy? How many women did the Wizard sleep with and why did only Elphaba's mom get pregnant? What's the logic behind Elphaba being born of a woman from Oz and a man from...I'll just say Earth....mean she's powerful? What other kinds of magic did other people possess? How many people were in on the Wizard's plans? How does magic work in the world of Wicked? How many people are born with powers? Why did Glinda seem so powerless in the beginning? Did she never have magic at all? What was that floating bubble? How does Elphaba cast that monkey wing spell when by reading a language she never saw before in her life and that nobody else knows how to read? How did she start a revolution with almost no allies and support? Did she end up enslaving those flying monkeys? Why didn't the Wizard just use birds instead of needlessly putting wings on monkeys? Were mammals the only animals talking in that world? Did the characters in Wicked eat meat? If so, which animals were off limits and which ones were they given free reign to farm and slaughter? What did Nessa actually do as the Wicked Witch of the East? Did she have any power or jurisdiction to enforce laws? How was Madame Morrible able to play second in command at Oz and run Shiz? Elphaba clearly didn't know what she was reading when she was trying to protect Fiyero from dying as she screams in that horrible song, but how did she know that was the right page? For all she knew, she was reading a spell about how to transfigure a goblet into a mouse. What really was Glinda's motivation and what was she actually capable of doing with a wand? Why was Glinda so glib about Nessa's death? Why was Elphaba blind to Nessa's supposed reign of tyranny? Why didn't Elphaba need a wand when Glinda did?  Why is it better for the Ozians to not know that their Wizard was corrupt and that Elphaba wasn't actually wicked? That was never explained. What did Elphaba actually do in Oz after Defying Gravity? All I know is that she just sat around cackling and scaring little girls from Kansas and then keep her restrained in her castle and forced her to clean the floor. How did Elphaba and Fiyero come up with that escape plan? How did they know Dorothy would throw a bucket of water on her as she was standing on that trapdoor? How did that trap door activate? What's going to happen to her flying monkey minions and guards? Is she going to give up her activism now? How can she and Fiyero live anonymous lives as he's a walking/talking Scarecrow and Elphaba is still green and thus recognizable? What the hell is up with that dragon?

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 06:10 PM

[Falslanaland]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:17pm

Dear Evan Hansen...
- Connor Murphys official cause of death and funeral.
- Evan Hansen, his illness sometimes effects him and sometimes it doesn't?
- jumping off meds doesn't harm him in any way
- Alana Beck... She just has too many plot holes.

[Shh_413]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:32pm

I think another notable plot hole in DEH is why Evan wasn't invited to the funeral. It was certainly one I noticed when I first saw it.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:36pm

Continuing my first post, eleven years ago, there was a thread dedicated to plot holes in Wicked:

https://forum.broadwayworld.com/readmessage.php?thread=923482

[JSquared2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:38pm

Shh_413 said: "I think another notable plot hole in DEH is why Evan wasn't invited to the funeral. It was certainly one I noticed when I first saw it."

 

Who's to say he wasn't invited?  The show does not take place in "real time".

[Shh_413]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:46pm

JSquared2 said: "Who's to say he wasn't invited? The show does nottake place in "real time"."

Zoe explains that Larry didn't cry at the funeral just before "If I Could Tell Her". I assumed that it would be natural that Evan would have been at the funeral to see that and she needn't explain that. It is possible that he was invited but declined to attend, which would look strange for the Murphys, thus, putting a kink in his image as Connor's friend. Still, it could have been possible.

[bwayrose7]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:49pm

ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "What is the green elixer in Wicked? How does the wizard really know Elphaba is his daughter? I mean how many women did he sell that green elixer too? How did they know that one random woman he had sex with actually resulted in pregnancy? How many women did the Wizard sleep with and why did only Elphaba's mom get pregnant? What's the logic behind Elphaba being born of a woman from Oz and a man from...I'll just say Earth....mean she's powerful? What other kinds of magic did other people possess? How many people were in on the Wizard's plans? How does magic work in the world of Wicked? How many people are born with powers? Why did Glinda seem so powerless in the beginning? Did she never have magic at all? What was that floating bubble? How does Elphaba cast that monkey wing spell when by reading a language she never saw before in her life and that nobody else knows how to read? How did she start a revolution with almost no allies and support? Did she end up enslaving those flying monkeys? Why didn't the Wizard just use birds instead of needlessly putting wings on monkeys? Were mammals the only animals talking in that world? Did the characters in Wicked eat meat? If so, which animals were off limits and which ones were they given free reign to farm and slaughter? What did Nessa actually do as the Wicked Witch of the East? Did she have any power or jurisdiction to enforce laws? How was Madame Morrible able to play second in command at Oz and run Shiz? Elphaba clearly didn't know what she was reading when she was trying to protect Fiyero from dying as she screams in that horrible song, but how did she know that was the right page? For all she knew, she was reading a spell about how to transfigure a goblet into a mouse. What really was Glinda's motivation and what was she actually capable of doing with a wand? Why was Glinda so glib about Nessa's death? Why was Elphaba blind to Nessa's supposed reign of tyranny? Why didn't Elphaba need a wand when Glinda did? Why is it better for the Ozians to not know that their Wizard was corrupt and that Elphaba wasn't actually wicked? That was never explained. What did Elphaba actually do in Oz after Defying Gravity? All I know is that she just sat around cackling and scaring little girls from Kansas and then keep her restrained in her castle and forced her to clean the floor. How did Elphaba and Fiyero come up with that escape plan? How did they know Dorothy would throw a bucket of water on her as she was standing on that trapdoor? How did that trap door activate? What's going to happen to her flying monkey minions and guards? Is she going to give up her activism now? How can she and Fiyero live anonymous lives as he's a walking/talking Scarecrow and Elphaba is still green and thus recognizable? What the hell is up with that dragon?"

I have thought way too much about Wicked over the years. Blame my teenage self.

- The green elixir is some sort of chemical potion, presumably an experiment of the Wizard's. It's not magical, but Elphaba's powers are stated to come from her being "a child of both worlds," so it's not a leap to assume that "Earth" things are bound by different rules of science in a magical world like Oz. It's implied that the green bottles were special keepsakes, so there would only have been the matching pair of them.

- Historically speaking, in some societies, married women were less cautious in their affairs because they could pass off illegitimate children as their husband's.

- Magic is rare in Oz as a natural gift (only Elphaba and Morrible are shown to truly possess it), but anyone can speak the words of a spell - their proficiency will drive the accuracy of the spell. Nessa doesn't share Elphaba's lineage and source of magic, but successfully casts a (botched) spell; I assume Glinda could master the language of spells and become adept enough. As for the wand thing... rule of funny, I guess?

- Why is it better for the citizens to keep believing the Wizard was good and Elphaba wicked? Because it's hard to change people's minds once they make them up. Even if Glinda had tried to prove it, a large faction would have probably called her a liar, civil war, etc. The show's point, I think, is how much people like tidy labels.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 6:56pm

bwayrose7 said: "ScottyDoesn'tKnow2 said: "What is the green elixer in Wicked? How does the wizard really know Elphaba is his daughter? I mean how many women did he sell that green elixer too? How did they know that one random woman he had sex with actually resulted in pregnancy? How many women did the Wizard sleep with and why did only Elphaba's mom get pregnant? What's the logic behind Elphaba being born of a woman from Oz and a man from...I'll just say Earth....mean she's powerful? What other kinds of magic did other people possess? How many people were in on the Wizard's plans? How does magic work in the world of Wicked? How many people are born with powers? Why did Glinda seem so powerless in the beginning? Did she never have magic at all? What was that floating bubble? How does Elphaba cast that monkey wing spell when by reading a language she never saw before in her life and that nobody else knows how to read? How did she start a revolution with almost no allies and support? Did she end up enslaving those flying monkeys? Why didn't the Wizard just use birds instead of needlessly putting wings on monkeys? Were mammals the only animals talking in that world? Did the characters in Wicked eat meat? If so, which animals were off limits and which ones were they given free reign to farm and slaughter? What did Nessa actually do as the Wicked Witch of the East? Did she have any power or jurisdiction to enforce laws? How was Madame Morrible able to play second in command at Oz and run Shiz? Elphaba clearly didn't know what she was reading when she was trying to protect Fiyero from dying as she screams in that horrible song, but how did she know that was the right page? For all she knew, she was reading a spell about how to transfigure a goblet into a mouse. What really was Glinda's motivation and what was she actually capable of doing with a wand? Why was Glinda so glib about Nessa's death? Why was Elphaba blind to Nessa's supposed reign of tyranny? Why didn't Elphaba need a wand when Glinda did? Why is it better for the Ozians to not know that their Wizard was corrupt and that Elphaba wasn't actually wicked? That was never explained. What did Elphaba actually do in Oz after Defying Gravity? All I know is that she just sat around cackling and scaring little girls from Kansas and then keep her restrained in her castle and forced her to clean the floor. How did Elphaba and Fiyero come up with that escape plan? How did they know Dorothy would throw a bucket of water on her as she was standing on that trapdoor? How did that trap door activate? What's going to happen to her flying monkey minions and guards? Is she going to give up her activism now? How can she and Fiyero live anonymous lives as he's a walking/talking Scarecrow and Elphaba is still green and thus recognizable? What the hell is up with that dragon?"

I have thought way too much about Wicked over the years. Blame my teenage self.

- The green elixir is some sort of chemical potion, presumably an experiment of the Wizard's. It's not magical, but Elphaba's powers are stated to come from her being "a child of both worlds," so it's not a leap to assume that "Earth" things are bound by different rules of science in a magical world like Oz. It's implied that the green bottles were special keepsakes, so there would only have been the matching pair of them.

- Historically speaking, in some societies,married women were less cautious in their affairs because they could pass off illegitimate children as their husband's.

- Magic is rare in Oz as a natural gift (only Elphaba and Morrible are shown to truly possess it), but anyone can speak the words of a spell - their proficiency will drive the accuracy of the spell. Nessa doesn't share Elphaba's lineage and source of magic, but successfully casts a (botched) spell; I assume Glinda could master the language of spells and become adept enough. As for the wand thing... rule of funny, I guess?

- Why is it better for the citizens to keep believing the Wizard was good and Elphaba wicked? Because it's hard to change people's minds once they make them up. Even if Glinda had tried to prove it, a large faction would have probably called her a liar, civil war, etc. The show's point, I think, is how much people like tidy labels."

Thanks for the reply!  Wicked frustrates me because I think it really had the potential to be a truly great, exceptional musical, but the way you explained things really come from fans picking up the pieces (and a lot of it from the book and not from the stage musical) and having to come up with explanations for things the show does not explain. I just find the writing to really and truly leave a lot to be desired. And the score...well, it has 2-to-3 good songs.

[poisonivy2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 7:03pm

Not really a plot hole but I always wondered how Eliza in the midst of all that was happening picked up the "27-A Wimpole St." address and what's more, was able to get there with no issues the very next morning. How could she afford the taxi?

[Fosse76]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 7:17pm

I don't think some off you understand what a plot hole is. The clock dragon in wicked has no bearing on the show's plot, so whether or not it gets explained is irrelevant. The chandelier being auctioned off in Phantom is not the "same" chandelier that hangs during Act 2 (they toast to a "new chandelier"). The auction doesn't even take place in the opera's house. The chandelier rising is just a cool way too start the show, and has no impact on the plot. The fact that some things aren't explained doesn't make them plot holes.

[ScottyDoesn'tKnow2]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 8:13pm

The Dragon Clock was one of many things people ask about. It's just a popular thing to bring up plot hole or not and is honestly the LEAST of that book's problems.

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 08:13 PM

[LuminousBeing]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 8:34pm

poisonivy2 said: "Not really a plot hole but I always wondered how Eliza in the midst of all that was happening picked up the "27-A Wimpole St." address and what's more, was able to get there with no issues the very next morning. How could she afford the taxi?"

She could afford the taxi because Henry put a lot of money into her basket when she kicked it to him, saying, " 'ere, take the 'ole bloomin' basket for a sixpence!"

I totally believe that someone who hustles like Eliza does has the hypervigilance skills to hear where Henry lives (he didn't exactly whisper it to Pickering), especially since she must know London very well.

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 08:34 PM

[Elfuhbuh]

Posted: 6/18/18 at 8:58pm

I never considered the Clock Dragon a "plot hole" or something glaring that needed to be explained. I always just thought it was a cool set piece that winks to the audience members who've read the book, but otherwise has no bearing on the plot. It adds atmosphere to the clocklike designs around the stage.

Updated On: 6/18/18 at 08:58 PM