Question about orchestrators

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:05am

How detailed, complicated, or close to the final product are composers' piano arrangements before the arranger writes the orchestrations?

[clarkstallings]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:09am

That really depends on the composer from what I've read. With computer technology, it is becoming easier and easier for a composer to make a demo of a song with virtual instruments that closely mimic the final orchestration. Some composers merely hum the tunes and have them transcribed so clearly any flourishes and what not would be done by the arrager/orchestrator (Mel Brooks does this) others I've heard (such as Stephen Schwartz) write out very detailed piano parts that are interpolated by the orchestrator thus they resemble the original closely.

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:24am

Very true, Clark. I know Sondheim's very explicit in his voicings. Webber, although he sometimes participates in the orchestrations, does not indicate the voicings.

Some composers, like Irving Berlin and Harvey Schmidt, who could play the piano, can't read music so they either play it into a recorder or for another musician.

Unfortunately, many newer composers just write chord sheets, or worse, sing it into a mic with no chord structure and let the orchestrators or arrangers do the textural work and fill in the blanks.

As a composer myself, depending on the time allotted, I usually write out the main piano part with other orchestral parts sketched out for the arrangers/orchestrators to finish. I'm usually pretty clear which inversions I desire and what colors I want to use. Depending on the project, sometimes I'll allow the arranger/orchestrator certain decisions on the those factors.

[JackiesBroJoe]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:26am

For Wicked, Stephen Schwartz wrote out a 5 finger melody with no bass line. I think the orchestrator should get more credit for that score than Schwartz.

[sweeneytodd2]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:28am

If you'll excuse my ignorance, what's a five finger melody?

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:34am

I agree Jackie. The inversions I'm talking about are exactly what makes up the bass line. Without it, there is no structure to the score as a whole and the songs sound "processed".

Melody dictates harmony; melody is dictated by rhythm which is dictated by lyric. Bernstein and Sondheim both worked this way.

Bernstein used to say: "You only need 9 notes to make a score"

Check out the bass line and other voices of West Side Story along with the melodies and you'll find those nine note patterns he was talking about. Less is More! Theme and Variation.

Wine and Cheese.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 12:38am

It used to be composer creates tune, hands off to arranger who preps the music with vocals and figures out the "color" and then off to the orchestrator who does the richly detailed sewing.

Listen to Hans Spialek's amazing work on On Your Toes, which has been faithfully recreated on the 1983 OCR and you'll hear a 1930's orchestration that's as fresh and modern as anything you hear today.

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 5:36am

Absolutely right, allofmylife!

The old days of the "hand off". The intense timing of scoring a film (usually, the last element before it's in the can) can sometimes require a team of arrangers/orchestrators.

In modern times, producers tend to hire composers who do it all for themselves. That explains the few names (wonderful names) that are working today: John Williams, James Horner, Thomas Neuman, Danny Elfman and others, unfortunately, that I can't think of at this time. It's a limited pool.

A film score, many times, has to be written within 2 or 3 weeks of spotting (where it's decided music should be). Sometimes less. The recording session can be as short as a few hours.

It all has to be in place and ready to go by the time musicians are in the room to record the score. Just like any business, time is money.

As for Broadway. The many changes that occur with the score during previews will involve the orchestrator and the conductor on a daily basis. Very tough. Brutal. Brilliantly satisfying.

[vmlinnie]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 5:49am

'If you'll excuse my ignorance, what's a five finger melody?'

I'm not sure but I thought it was a melody played on one hand on the piano. Forgive me if I'm way off.

I write my own orchestrations when I write. It's not that hard, so really I believe the Composer should do it him/herself. Though I know guys like Martin Koch do excellent jobs so I understand why some composers like to use people like him.

I was actually wondering about this myself a short while ago. Nice thread.

Updated On: 8/28/06 at 05:49 AM

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 6:12am

You're right, vmlinnie, in that 5 finger means a one handed melody. That would refer to a composer who can only play the melody on the piano and relies on an arranger to figure out the chord structure/harmonies.

You may think it's easy to do your "own orchestraitions" (your spelling is off--orchestrations), but you need to have an understanding of how the families within the orchestra operate. Will the reeds compete with the horns...how will the strings compete...the woodwinds...the percussion, including the piano and harp? The textures/colors, will they support the inherent drama and character of the action on stage? And never let it upstage the drama or moment in the show/film.

It's not easy.

There are people who can compose. There are people who can arrange. There are people who can orchestrate.

There are also people who can do it all. Very few people.

I hope you become one of them. Never stop trying. Decide which you like to do best, focus on it and then explore the other facets of it. It will take time.

I know that's probably the LAST thing you want to hear!

And remember, spelling also applies to orchestrations: how to SPELL out the parts for the various instruments. Same terminology in all of the arts: Color, balance, texture, light...

You have time. Can't wait to hear how you use it, color it, and balance it!

[vmlinnie]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 7:55am

Thanks for that Tom, great advice.

And sorry about Orchestrations, it was a typo!

[leefowler]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 9:07am

I've worked on several Broadway shows, and it's VERY rare for music to go straight from a composer to an orchestrator. The reason? The composer is not a part of the day to day rehearsal process, and often doesn't know exactly what's happening with his song. Here's the procedure as I know it:

The composer writes his song...

The arranger takes the song, and it goes through the rehearsal process, with music added by the arranger. Here are the some the things the arranger is likely to change:
The intro, depending on how the song fits in the show.
The key, so it fits the performer's range.
Vocal harmonies, if there is more than one person involved.
Dance music, if this is part of the number.
Music under dialogue, if there is dialogue during the number.
The finish, so that the number gets a big hand.

When the composer, director and choreographer decide a number is ready, the arranger will write a chart showing all of these changes, and the orchestrator will come in and watch the number. Then, everybody will go into a room and tell the orchestrator what they feel he needs to know to make the right choices. Then the orchestrator takes the arranger's chart home.

I'm sure there are exceptions, based on the composer, and the type of musical, but this is how it's always worked with me. Often the composer will step in and ask for changes during this time. But the composer's music is usually only a starting point.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 9:23am

If I'm the composer, the song may leave my hands but every note (except for dance arrangements) that ends up in the show comes out of my pen. I may not be at rehearsal but I am apprised of the required changes and make them accordingly. That's my job.




Allison MacKenzie
Peyton Place, New Hampshire
Updated On: 8/28/06 at 09:23 AM

[vmlinnie]

Posted: 8/28/06 at 9:42am

I think because of the way I work I don't need someone else to adapt music to dialogue etc.

I come up with the concept/adaptation, and I lay out the scenes and where the musical numbers go. Then, I go to my friend/collaborator and we write the lyrics and music together. Then, I take that away and string it together with the book. So we don't really need to adapt the music to the dialogue etc, because it's written with that in mind.

[sydney23]

Posted: 8/30/06 at 11:54pm

You've confused me TomMonster! First you say that "Unfortunately, many newer composers just write chord sheets, or worse, sing it into a mic with no chord structure and let the orchestrators or arrangers do the textural work and fill in the blanks."

Then "in modern times, producers tend to hire composers who do it all for themselves."

Then you and AllOfMyLife refer to composers only writing the "tune" and the old days of the "handoff".

Are y'all suggesting that Gershwin, Arlen, Rodgers etc. were playing the melody with their right hands and scratching their beans with the left? Certainly arrangers did amazing work and made huge contributions back in the old days (for instance Roger Edens and the intro he wrote for the G. Kelly version of "singing in the rain") but to suggest that most composers - then or now - are just five fingered rubes who only write tunes is, i believe, just plain wrong. But you do seem to be speaking from personal experience as if you've worked on Broadway shows - so is there anything specific you can tell us about your experiences and how you know so much about this stuff? I'd love to hear some examples of some of the things you've observed. Thanks.

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 8/30/06 at 11:57pm

And name names.






Countess Olenska
New York City

[allofmylife]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 12:28am

So here's a name named.

Richard Rodgers.

All of his papers are, thank god, preserved and available for perusal, both at the Rodgers and Hammerstein Collection at the NYPL and at the Library of Congress. Both archive contents are listed online. In most instances, Rodgers wrote a two page "lead sheet" of the melody and an idea of the style of arrangement he wanted. Then an arranger filled this out and then off to the orchestrator, Robert Russel Bennett during the Rodgers and Hammerstein days or Hans Spialek when he worked with Hart.

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 3:05am

OK, sydney23: allofmylife has a great example. And to confuse things more : Rogers who had the skills to write out more than a lead sheet, did not find it necessary for the songs of a broadway score. The arrangers/orchestrators could do it for him. But he was always clear as to the colors and textures.

My experience is more based on the Sondheim factor. He is very clear how he wants the parts to sound out. He's writing a "score" in that every note relates to every other note. That is also my experience as a composer.

Rogers wrote great stuff but didn't write "scores" for his shows. He "scored" TV and movies. He also had input, not on paper always, but with Bennett and others as to what inversions, colors, textures, etc. would be needed.

Another great example is Gershwin and his Rhapsody in Blue. He did not orchestrate it. I'm not even sure if he suggested that he wanted a clarinet to play the opening phrase, but it was the orchestrator that finally put the piece together (in fact, I think the orchestrator came up with the brilliant idea of using the clarinet for those first notes). Quite frankly, Gerswhin improvised the piano part during the first concert, because he had little time to write the piece (he had forgotten his committment to the concert, until he read the ad in the papers at the time!)

As confusing as it all sounds, that is the answer: It always depends on the composer and their working relationship with their arrangers/orchestrators and the time they have available to work on the project at hand.

Long story—and many facts on my part short—it's different for everyone!

My comment earlier regarding the "or worse" simply means that with current computer technology many young composers are not really writing, but are creating sound scapes and not real songs.

Hey, I can make it sound good!! (No character driven motifs)

Thats my 10 cents. (inflation)

[TomMonster]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 3:12am

10 more cents...

If you really want to learn about orchestration...see/hear the Sarah Travis orchestrations for Sweeney Todd.

Steve wrote all of the notes. Sarah figured out where to pair them with what instruments she had available and could still keep the same textures.

That would not have worked if all that was provided was a lead sheet. Yes, she could arrange/orchestrate (forgive me for lumping it together) other scores (and she has done that), but in the case of Sweeney, pretty much all of it is there in the writing of Sondheim.

I think I'm up to 30 cents now...

[elmore3003]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 8:07am

There is some wrong information on this thread about Richard Rodgers' songs; he did not write lead sheets, but full piano accompaniments, as his manuscripts in the Library of Congress will testify. One orchestrator, David Raksin who later wrote film scores, was sacked by Rodgers for rewriting his harmony. In fact, the ballets for "Slaughter on Tenth Avenue" and "Big Brother" exist in full piano accompaniment.

[leefowler]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 9:40am

I suspect that what Sarah Travis worked with was Jonathan Tunick's orchestration, not Sondheim's original charts. Her work was a reduction of Tunick's work, skillful, but not original.

And here's the story (as I know it) of the clarinet glissando in rhapsody: Ferde Grofe, who orchestrated it, wrote it as a clarinet glissando, with a straight line leading from the bottom note to the top, intending it to be a chromatic scale. The clarinetist with the Paul Whiteman orchestra, as a joke, played the glissando as a "smear", like a trombone or a violin might play a glissando. Everyone loved it, and it's one of the most recognizable openings in music.

Moral: Everything in the arts is a lot more collaborative than you think!

[sydney23]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 11:55am

Thanks Elmore. i figured if i just hung back long enough someone would leap to richard rodgers' defense

And now i'm waiting for someone to explain how they know that stephen schwartz, a guy who studied at juilliard and can certainly play with both hands, wrote only five fingered melodies for Wicked! I mean, I'll believe it if somebody knows Stephen Oremus or William Brohn and they told them that - but it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Composers tend to be be people with decent sized egos - and a proprietary interest in what they create and maybe even (dare i say it) a little artistic integrity and pride as well. it's just hard to believe that any of the people mentioned in this thread would only write "half a song" (as a tune without chords or harmonies most certainly is) and leave the other half up to someone else.

TomMonster, when you say Rodgers didn't think it was necessary to write it all out but was always clear about the colors and textures - what exactly are you referring to as the colors and textures? would those be the chords/harmonies? If so - then he's not writing just a tune or a five fingered melody - he's written the song - right? Beyond that any arrangement or orchestration is an interpretation of that work. There have been repeated references here to lead sheets (implying that they are pale excuses for real composition - "five fingered melodies" and the like.) tho there are many kinds of lead sheets - most of them always include the melody plus chords or chord symbols - hence a song - not a tune. This is the assertion made by some people on this thread that i've been questioning all along. several people have implied that these folk were just writing tunes sans harmonies. additionally they've implied that composers who don't dot every i and cross every t on a score have somehow not written anything as nearly as important as the "score". well they may not have written the full score but they've certainly written the songs.

The reason I think it's important to get this clear is that i've previously seen (on this board and others) a condescending attitude to the work of theater composers paired with some sort of implication that the composers are phonies, hacks and even thieves and that their arrangers/orchestrators are the real creators. And it seems to me that these assertions are invariably made by people on assumptions or very little actual information - so i just don't get it. That's why I'm asking for examples and validation - and sure enough - as in the case of Rodgers - there does seem to be a lot of contradictory information out there.

All I'm trying to say is that - while arrangers and orchestrators are invaluable to the creation a musical theatre score - and historically many of them have been geniuses in their own right - in the end - the song's the thing. without the song - i.e. the melody and harmonies created by the composer - you have nothing. take all the standards written by gershwin or porter - songs for which dozens to hundreds of arrangements and orchestrations have been created over the years - are gershwin or porter any less the composers of these songs because their work has been interpreted and re-interpreted by nelson riddle and countless others? perhaps contemporary composers would rate more respect if their work was set in stone like most works in the classical repertoire - but gee the world would have been deprived of so many great performances if that were the case. So by all means let's applaud and celebrate the work of the great arrangers and orchestrators - but not at the expense of the real inspiration and virtual meat and potatoes of the musical art - the SONG!

And that's my five cents.

[larry3]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 2:19pm

I have been reading these orchestraton questions with some amusement and some concern...so here are my two cents...


Regardless of what fabulous things Jonathan Tunick, RRBennett,
Phil Lang, Billy Byers, Irwin Kostal, Robert Ginzler, Sid Ramin
and lots and lots of other arrangers have brought to the table...
and regardless of the fact that the composer may or may not
have the skills to write the full arrangement or hum a few notes
to his own personal Salieri....

Irving Berlin wrote White Christmas and his many other tunes...
and Richard Rodgers wrote Some Enchanted Evening. .and the old
joke Jerome Kern wrote da da da dum. .but Oscar Hammerstein wrote
OLD MAN RIVER...
without the song writer there is no song....Jerry Herman wrote his own songs and in fact, even tho, there might have been some help in transcribing them, Mel Brooks did write the score to Producers.


Steve Sondheim was just as successful with other orchestrators as he was and is with Jonathan Tunick.

Schooled or not, I have never been in a room with a composer
who didn't have the basic talent and the ears to hear and correct a wrong note in his own composition...whether they could play the piano with two hands or even one.

To add to that. .
I think a good orchestration can help a less than terrific song along.
A bad orchestration is not going to destroy a really good song
whether it is written by Jerry Herman or my Aunt Sadie

The question of whether the clarinet smear at the beginning of
Rhapsody IN Blue is the creation of George GErshwin, Ferde Grofe
or the clarinetist will remain one of the great unsolved memories
of my life....along with . .
who's great idea was it to include the siren that begins the overture of FIORELLO...
was that the composer, the orchestrator or the director or the producer?
It's a great idea and it works very well.

I personally would rather hear Tunick's orchestration of
SWEENEY TODD than Travis' white out job on Jonathan's work, chosen simply by the necessity of budget and oddities of the production.
Any way you cut it, Sondheim's work is brilliant and that's what counts.

Someone made a comment about DAvid Raksin being fired
for changing Rodger's harmonies.
The story from David was not that he changed the harmony
. . .which he promptly changed back. He thought it was an error on Rodgers part...and changed it as a possible correction.
He was fired for making an insulting remark to Rodgers in the process. David admitted that any composer would've fired him for the remark.

There are a lot of really orchestrators...there are fortunately
a lot of great composers to keep the rest of us employed.

[JailyardGuy]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 2:41pm

The Gershwin smear (which, by the way, I hate. I have a clip of me playing this solo on my MySpace, and I make a note on the link about the smear) is not a mystery at all to we clarinetists.

Ross Gorman, the clarinetist of Paul Whiteman's jazz orchestra, who first performed Rhapsody in Blue (all the above, btw, about him not even having it finished at the first performance is correct...Grofé orchestrated what he had, and GG said that he would play his nuts off and then nod to Whiteman when it was time for the orchestra to come back in), was known for that particular technique and employed it during a particularly intense and grueling rehearsal to lighten the mood. Gershwin liked the sound so much that he told him to perform it that way, and in grand time-honored classical music tradition, clarinetists ever since have done it.

You will not find it printed in any published 1st clarinet part, however. What you will see is simply a scale starting on a trilled concert F (written G in the clarinet part) below middle C ascending diatonically (not chromatically) upward seventeen notes to the Bb (written high C in the clarinet part) above the staff. The execution of the smear is unique to every clarinetist, and everyone starts it at a different place in the run. (Occasionally, if I'm performing it with a conductor who INSISTS on the smear, I'll bend the concert A up into the Bb, but I think it sounds horrible to start it halfway up the scale).

Updated On: 8/31/06 at 02:41 PM

[allofmylife]

Posted: 8/31/06 at 4:05pm

I love that story that Victor Borge always told about Wagner conducting the first playing of the overture for one of his operas. He stopped in the middle and pointed to one of the musicians. You played the note half a measure too short. The man shhepishly looked at his score, dusted it with his hand and said, "Sorry Mein Herr. There was a fly speck beside the note." They started again and Wagner stopped at the same point again and said "The fly was right. Everyone dot the eighth note please." (Probably also told for all sorts of other composers).