Sondheim calls the FOLLIES obcr a "dreadful album".....- Page 2

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/26/11 at 10:51pm

What "sour grapes", Matt? I didn't write either show and it's hard to argue that Hal Prince doesn't have enough Tony Awards.

But as for objective comparisons, I don't know the standard by which this...

I LOVE MY FATHER
I WANT TO TELL HIM
I LOVE MY MOTHER
I WANT TO TELL HER
I LOVE MY BROTHER
I WANT TO TELL HIM
I LOVE MY SISTER
I WANT TO TELL HER
I LOVE MY MIRROR
I WANT TO TELL ME
I WANT TO LOVE ME
I WANT TO LOVE ME
YOU CAN’T LOVE ANOTHER
WITHOUT LOVING YOURSELF

...compares (musically or lyrically) to this song with a similar theme:

WHEN THE WINDS ARE BLOWING.
THAT'S THE TIME TO SMILE.
LEARN HOW TO LAUGH.
LEARN HOW TO LOVE.
LEARN HOW TO LIVE.
THAT'S MY STYLE.

WHEN THE RENT IS OWING,
WHAT'S THE USE OF TEARS!
I'D RATHER LAUGH,
I'D RATHER LOVE.
I'D RATHER LIVE
IN ARREARS.

SOME FELLOWS SWEAT
TO GET TO BE MILLIONAIRES,
SOME HAVE A SPORT
THEY'RE DEVOTEES OF,
SOME LIKE TO BE THE CHAMPS
AT SAVING POSTAGE STOMPS.
ME, I LIKE TO LIVE.
ME, I LIKE TO LAUGH,
ME, I LIKE TO LOVE.

SOME LIKE TO SINK
AND THINK IN THEIR EASY CHAIRS
OF ALL THE THINGS
THEY'VE RISEN ABOVE.
SOME LIKE TO BE PROFOUND
BY READING PROUST AND POUND.
ME. I LIKE TO LIVE.
ME. I LIKE TO LAUGH,
ME, I LIKE TO LOVE.

SUCCESS IS SWELL
AND SUCCESS IS SWEET,
BUT EVERY HEIGHT HAS A DROP.
THE LESS ACHIEVEMENT,
THE LESS DEFEAT.
WHAT'S THE POINT OF SHOVIN'
YOUR WAY TO THE TOP?
LIVE 'N' LAUGH 'N' LOVE 'N'
YOU'RE NEVER A FLOP....

Etc. and so forth. Of course you're entitle to disagree. I just don't see any basis on which VERONA is superior.

Maybe there's a reason there are 17 threads here debating the merits of FOLLIES (book problems and all). Not so many dissecting VERONA.

(ETA my remark that "Irony had nothing to do with it" was a play on the word irony. I have trouble believing you didn't understand that.)
Updated On: 11/26/11 at 10:51 PM

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/27/11 at 11:16am

Of course you're entitle to disagree. I just don't see any basis on which VERONA is superior.

Who said the score to Two Gentlemen is superior to Follies (since that was the only, and hugely lopsided, comparison you made, though hardly objective)? I do think Follies has more sophistication and complexity in its music and lyrics. But I don't think that automatically makes Follies a better show. I also believe the scores were written in entirely different styles to serve completely different stories and purposes.

Two Gentlemen of Verona took a Shakespearean comedy and used the current day in its staging and score to add current relevance to the story. And I think context has as much to do with a score as music theory. I can imagine what the reaction to this song was during the Vietnam War. I saw how the audience went nuts over it during the Bush administration and our soldiers in Iraq:

WHEN I GOT INTO OFFICE
THERE WAS TOO MUCH PEACE
I SAID IT LEADS TO TROUBLE
ALL THIS PEACE
SINCE I’VE BEEN ELECTED
I PUT TROOPS FROM HERE TO ROME
AND IF I’M RE-ELECTED
I’LL BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME

BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME

I’LL SEND OUR BOYS TO WAR FARE
TO SAVE OUR WHO – KNOWS – WHAT
TO PROTECT OUR HEY – WHO – DERE
AND DEFEND OUR HEY – WHAT – NOT
IF I’M RE-ELECTED
WHERE E’ER OUR TROOPS MAY ROAM
IF I’M RE-SELECTED
I’LL BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME

BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME

IF WE DIDN’T HAVE A WAR
THEN WHERE
WOULD WE SPEND OUR MONEY
WHERE
WELFARE, CLEAN AIR, CHILD CARE

CLEAN AIR ONLY MAKES YOU WHEEZE
WELFARE KEEPS YOU ON YOUR KNEES

I’LL RAISE THE TAX
WE SHOULD ADORE
THE FACT WE CAN
AFFORD A WAR

THE BOYS ALL GET IN TROUBLE
SPUNKY LITTLE CHAPS
I’LL TEACH THE LITTLE CHILDREN
THEIR FAVORITE SONG IS TAPS

BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING EM HOME BRING ‘EM HOME
BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME

YOU SHOULD BE PROUD
AND FEEL ALL WARM
A SHROUD’S
A LOVELY UNIFORM

WHO’S THAT BOY
HE SMOKED A JOINT
SEND HIM OFF
AT RIFLE POINT
WHAT’S THAT SIGN
SAYS ME AND GRAFT
PUT THAT GUY
INTO THE DRAFT

I’M PATRIOTIC
TO A MAN
TO GOD, AND COUNTRY
AND MILAN

BRING EM BACK BRING EM BACK
BRING EM BACK BRING EM BACK
BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK
BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK

I sent em over and I can bring em back. Re-elect me!

Re-elect me

Re-elect me!

AND I’LL BRING ALL THE BOYS BACK HOME!!

And for a similar "objective" comparison...how would that compare in effectiveness and relevance to this from Follies:

Listen to the rain on the roof go

Pit-pitty-pat--

Pit-pitty-pat--

Pitty--
Sit, kitty cat,
We won't get home for hours.
Relax and
Listen to the rain on the roof go

Plunk-planka-plink-

Plunk-planka-plink-

Planka-
Let's have a drink
And shelter from the showers.
Rain, rain, don't go away,
Fill up the sky.
Rain through the night.
We'll stay
Cozy and dry.
Listen to the rain on the roof go
Pit-pitty-pat-

Plunk-a-plink-

Plank-

Pity that
It's not a hurricane.
Listen "plink" to the

Lovely rain.

Now, I wouldn't call that a fair comparison, but I do think there is an objective standard that would rank Bring All the Boys Back Home over Rain on the Roof. Anyone can cherry-pick for any reason, you see.

Maybe there's a reason there are 17 threads here debating the merits of FOLLIES (book problems and all). Not so many dissecting VERONA.

So what? Two Gentlemen doesn't need dissection and debate because it's a totally different type of show written for totally different reasons. But if the number of threads is the gauge for what makes the best musical, then Wicked wins by far.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/27/11 at 6:18pm

Matt, I certainly didn't intend to "rig" my comparison. IIRC, "I Love my Father" was one of the more popular songs in VERONA; they do sing it twice in the show.

I chose the songs I chose because they both deal with similar themes.

And "Bring the Boys Back Home" is nice enough, I suppose, but viewed with a little thought, the entirety of FOLLIES is about how we blunder into disasters like Vietnam. So it says the same thing as VERONA in a far more sophisticated (and universally relevant) manner.

If you think FOLLIES is merely about the foibles of Arizona housewives, then you don't know the show very well.

My point here is not to trash VERONA. I don't care who won a Tony Award 40 years ago and the production of VERONA I saw was pleasant. But it wasn't much more than that. Comparing VERONA to FOLLIES? You might as well compare VERONA to PORGY AND BESS or DON GIOVANNI.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/27/11 at 7:36pm

IIRC, "I Love my Father" was one of the more popular songs in VERONA; they do sing it twice in the show.

I'm not sure what you mean by "popular songs". Because it was repeated in the score? In any other way, it was no more popular than Live Laugh Love from Follies. I Love My Father is a short thematic motif rooted in the theme of the story, the lyrics of which ("you can't love another without loving yourself") was also a popular form of pop psychology of the day. It's actually sung three times in the show (the opening, the finale, and the beginning of the protagonist's journey). And again...totally different songs written for different reasons and intent.

the entirety of FOLLIES is about how we blunder into disasters like Vietnam. So it says the same thing as VERONA in a far more sophisticated (and universally relevant) manner.

LOL I don't know how you got there, but it must have been a LOOOOOONG trip. But no, I don't think they say the same thing. At all.

If you think FOLLIES is merely about the foibles of Arizona housewives, then you don't know the show very well.

I do know the show very well. I've read the books, seen the show, listened to the recordings and heard all the endless academic chatter. I do think Follies is about more than that. I just don't think it lived up to all its good intentions and potential.

Comparing VERONA to FOLLIES? You might as well compare VERONA to PORGY AND BESS or DON GIOVANNI.

Then why did you start with the comparisons and "objective standards"?

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/27/11 at 9:25pm

Matt, FOLLIES isn't just about marrying the wrong person and refusing to admit it. At the time it was written, we were bogged down in a Vietnamese quagmire with no exit strategy in sight. Even military leaders knew the war could not be won, yet American illusions (and false pride) prevented us from walking away.

I'm not saying the play is just a Vietnam allegory or even primarily one, but it isn't an accident that it employs a cavalcade of American popular music to tell its story. Like the more literal ASSASSINS that was yet to come, FOLLIES is very much about how American optimism can betray us, nationally as well as personally. But Sondheim tries to avoid the literal preaching of lines like "Bring all the boys back home." (Yes, one can argue whether Sondheim's approach is as effective from a political point of view.)

I believed "I Love my Father" was a highlight of VERONA because it appeared in a book of Broadway sheet music I had from the period. I don't know the score of VERONA well enough to pick a poor lyric just to "game" the comparison.

And I'm aware that the lyrics to "Father" and the rest of the VERONA score are exactly what John Guare wanted them to be. I remember the period when the craft of a Sondheim or Porter was deemed "artificial", "old-fashioned" and fundamentally "dishonest."

I didn't agree then and I don't agree now. But MacDermott always had a knack for writing catchy tunes; I just don't happen to think VERONA lived up to the promise of HAIR.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/27/11 at 10:45pm

Matt, FOLLIES isn't just about marrying the wrong person and refusing to admit it.

Like I said, I know that. I know what the show is about and the intentions and themes it represents. I know all about the shattered illusions of the "American Dream" across the generations and the fondness/regret dichotomy of nostalgia. But the Vietnam link is more than a stretch only using the broadest of all broad strokes thematically. Two Gentlemen was purposely more literal because the story they chose lent itself to the subject.

In some ways, I like two Gentlemen more than Hair, but probably because it hasn't been overexposed, so the score seems more fresh, but also because it was intended to be light musical comedy rather than a political statement or a monument to theatrical innovation. I love it precisely for what it is and I found it enormously entertaining and joyous. I think Hair was an important piece historically and I loved it the first time I saw it, but it's nothing I wish to see several times or often.

I don't think Two Gentlemen had to live up Hair because it was intended to be a very different show and experience than Hair. The true follow-up shows to Hair were Dude and to some extent, Via Galactica. But musically, McDermot redeemed himself again Off-Broadway with The Human Comedy which I would LOVE to see in revival.

I'm not saying the play is just a Vietnam allegory or even primarily one, but it isn't an accident that it employs a cavalcade of American popular music to tell its story.

It's definitely a cavalcade of pastiche that tells some stories, though not always cohesively or consistently. I guess the problem I have is that Follies was a show about themes and ideas, but tried to ground them with a story that I simply didn't find interesting or compelling in the least.

I also had a Broadway compilation book of sheet music that included the song Pearls from Two Gentlemen of Verona. Those books pick popular standards and personal favorites based on the editors. I can't think of a single reason why the brief I Love My Father would be included in any compilation. It's nothing more than a short theme. Bring All the Boys Back Home, Land of Betrayal, Symphony, Love's Revenge, Mansion (or the London replacement...Howl) or What a Nice Idea would all be far better choices.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 2:28pm

Matt, I'm happy to take your word as to which songs in VERONA are best. As I said, I only saw it once, about 15 years ago, and except for the one song I knew ("Father"), I don't remember a single number. (I'm not suggesting my lack of memory is the fault of the score.)

But I don't see how the lyric you chose is demonstrably better than "I Love My Father." I realize the choices made in both are deliberate, but the craft is no less sloppy simply because craft was intentionally rejected as artifice.

And there's no question that FOLLIES is heavy on theme and light on plot; for me, it does what it does so well that I never wanted more plot.

Likewise, I can appreciate that VERONA struck you as fresh and interesting simply because it isn't so often revived, recorded and discussed to death on these boards. But I'm sure you'll agree that none of those things represent any failing on the part of FOLLIES.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 4:32pm

But I'm sure you'll agree that none of those things represent any failing on the part of FOLLIES.

Of course not. And I don't blame Follies for my being completely burned out on the score from the endless concerts, tributes, recordings, cabarets, gay piano bars and message board discussions. I'll buy the new recording because I'm a die-hard collector, but I'll probably only listen to it once. I greatly admire the score, but I'm not a fan of the score and I never really was. I respect it, but I don't enjoy repeated listening of it.

But I don't see how the lyric you chose is demonstrably better than "I Love My Father." I realize the choices made in both are deliberate, but the craft is no less sloppy simply because craft was intentionally rejected as artifice.

Personally, I think craft is determined by style and intent. I don't think Guare's lyrics are especially well-crafted (it was his first outing as a Broadway lyricist), but they are effective and they were consistent with the style of the book and direction. The score for Two Gentlemen didn't win the Tony and I agree with that. Follies does have a more intricate and sophisticated score. But as a complete show, I find Two Gentlemen to be a better overall package. I enjoy frothy entertainment as much as provocative artistry and my tastes are eclectic. I don't know what that UCLA production was like that you saw, but what I saw from Two Gentlemen at the Delacorte was witty, charming, joyous and highly entertaining.

And there's no question that FOLLIES is heavy on theme and light on plot; for me, it does what it does so well that I never wanted more plot.

For me, what little plot Follies has, I detest. Regardless the ambitious themes of Follies, when I left Two Gentlemen, I felt ebullient. When I left Follies, I felt lethargic.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 6:10pm

And I left FOLLIES feeling exhilarated at the sheer brilliance of staging and writing, and stunned by the phenomenal way the stage was utilized to dramatize themes. I thought the entire genre of musical theater had taken a giant leap forward.

The UCLA production of VERONA was well received in general, and I certainly didn't hate it. But I didn't see how it amounted to much more than HAIR without the pointed social commentary.

I do value your opinion, Matt; but if the New York Times review is any indication, you were seeing something in the park that was quite different from the original show:

http://theater.nytimes.com/mem/theater/treview.html?res=9D03E1D61F3EF93AA1575BC0A9639C8B63

This is probably where we disagree, Matt, but I don't mind if you want the last word.

(Full disclosure: I've known both the producer at the Delacourt (Oskar Eustis) and the book writer (Mel Shapiro) for 20 years, so it's not as though I root against VERONA. Based on my limited exposure, it just doesn't seem to have much content to go with all that exuberance.)

[TheEnchantedHunter]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 6:26pm

"Now, I wouldn't call that a fair comparison, but I do think there is an objective standard that would rank Bring All the Boys Back Home over Rain on the Roof."

Only to the delusional and illiterate.










Updated On: 8/7/13 at 06:26 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 6:44pm

"Only to the delusional and illiterate."

Now let's be fair. As political satire, "Let's Bring the Boys Back Home" has a lot more to say than "Rain on the Roof."

I think that was Matt's point.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 7:40pm

Oh, it's not about having the last word. I was just supporting my opinions on Two Gentlemen of Verona as well as Follies. Plus, I enjoy a bit of debate and I've found the discussion to be interesting and engaging. I remember that review and agreeing with some of it and not agreeing with some of it. What I remember more was leaving that show with a sense of having spent one of the happiest evenings I've ever experienced in NYC. Discussing the show brings back those wonderful feelings and memories. I've listened to the score, read the script, and read the original Shakespearean text numerous times since I saw it and I would LOVE to direct it one day.

Now let's be fair. As political satire, "Let's Bring the Boys Back Home" has a lot more to say than "Rain on the Roof."

I think that was Matt's point.

Oh, he knew what my point was. He was just doing what he usually does. Luckily, not all Follies fans are like TheEnchantedHunter or NOBODY would like that show.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 8:27pm

I was just trying to be a gentleman, Matt, in offering you the last word. If it seemed I was accusing you of pettiness, I really do apologize.

What I meant to say in my previous post was that I think we've reached the point where we have to agree to disagree. But I, too, have enjoyed the debate and I'm glad you enjoyed the show!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/28/11 at 11:22pm

The last word! It is MINE!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

No worries. I honestly didn't think you were being petty at all. I've enjoyed the conversation quite a bit, actually. With all the Follies love, it was nice to discuss a show I'm passionate about just as much as the Follies fans are about Follies. I sort of envy you guys in a way. I did so much research into Follies hoping I could connect with it the way others did, but alas, it just didn't happen for me. And who wants to discuss Two Gentlemen of Verona? Very, very few. It's a forgotten show that probably saw its only brief time in the spotlight. Maybe I've gotten it out of my system for a while. Or maybe I will personally resurrect it to the musical theatre HALL OF FAME...

Yeah, right.

Oh, and as for the lyrics to I Love My Father...they have been especially meaningful and quite poignant to me personally this year. As brief as the pseudo-song is, I get it. I lost my father this year and his death brought me closer to my mother (my only family in town) and my brother (a conservative Tea Party black sheep of the family that had been estranged for many years). And then my partner of nine years left me and I went through the crap of blaming myself out of sheer confusion. So, the lyrics may not be as shallow as people think until they have traveled a relevant path. It's all in how you look at it. Perhaps that's why I prefer not to hear Losing My Mind again. Been there, done that, bought the windowcard and stagedoored for autographs. I can even tell you what the curtain looks like.

But thank you for the stimulating conversation. The diversion is greatly appreciated. Hope I didn't offend.

Updated On: 11/28/11 at 11:22 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 3:31pm

I am so sorry to hear about your father, Matt. And no wonder "I Love My Father" moves you! It's very simplicity is probably touching in a way that a more complicated lyric might not be.

You certainly didn't write anything that offended me. And anyway, you are one of the posters here whose opinions I value (even while disagreeing); I'm not about to let a feud erupt between us if I can help it. LOL.

Sorry about the confusions over the "last word". Whenever I say, "let's just agree to disagree", I feel like I'm shutting the other person up, when s/he may have something important left to say. So I try to always invite the other poster to add whatever s/he may like.

Anyhoo, you may be sure of this much: if I have a chance to see VERONA again, I will go with an open mind and view/listen as if I had never seen it before.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 3:38pm

If you do get a chance to see Verona again, let me know! I'll join you! Oh, who are we kidding? It'll be 20 years before there is another professional production at the very least.

But thank you for the kind words. And if you haven't noticed, I don't shut up easily. I've always been that way. Got into SO MUCH TROUBLE in elementary school...

[newintown]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 3:47pm

Two Gentlemen was a novelty show that quickly sank into much-deserved oblivion. Galt MacDermot's talent is a pedestrian one, albeit entertaining, much like that of Joe ("Rubber Ducky") Raposo.

Follies is the apotheosis of musical theatre, and will, for many years, be discussed, revived, explored, and loved by performers and audiences. Stephen Sondheim is a first-class artist who transformed the American musical.

No matter which show you prefer, those are the facts.
Updated On: 11/29/11 at 03:47 PM

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:07pm

"...And if you haven't noticed, I don't shut up easily. I've always been that way. Got into SO MUCH TROUBLE in elementary school...."

Matt, it is obvious you are "my brother from another mother", as the saying now goes.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:12pm

Gaveston2 - My mother loves Maker's Mark, Caroline or Change, Mika, and gays. Welcome to the family!

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:14pm

newintown, I'm not sure MacDermott's talent is so pedestrian. His music for HAIR still holds up quite well, I think, and even served to support a film version that was an entirely different style from the stage show.

But MacDermott and his collaborators appeared on the scene when musical theater craft (particularly for lyrics and librettos) was being discarded willy-nilly. Gone were the lyrics that could be understood amidst the distractions of live theater. Gone was character as a function of lyric vocabulary. Gone were song structures that audience members could understand and appreciate.

Of course, these "cast offs" were missed by audiences and, for the most part, returned--which is why we're still debating the craft of 40-year-old Sondheim musicals.

But if anything, MacDermott was a casualty of the social and artistic "revolution" of the 1960s. Who's to say what he might have accomplished had he been paired with a Sondheim, Harnick or even Alan Jay Lerner?

[newintown]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:28pm

Having heard much more of MacDermot's output than just Hair (Via Galactica, Human Comedy, non-theatrical songs, etc.), I'm convinced that he just doesn't have the talent to be a first-rate composer (lyrics aside - I think they're too simplistic to discuss). His musical language is extremely limited; compared to the music of a Sondheim, Gershwin, Bernstein, or Weill, it's like comparing a few dangling threads to a full tapestry.

Perhaps it was his goal to write nursery-simple music for a musically uneducated audience. If so, he sort of succeeded (except that none of his music reached much of an audience, outside of Hair).

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:34pm

newintown, I bow to your superior knowledge of MacDermott's scores. But I have to confess I love the music of HAIR.

***

Matt, please ask your Mom to reserve me a seat for Christmas. It'll be nice to discuss serious musicals without being told I am "morbid" because I am gay. (Of course, my marriage has lasted more than 3 times as long as my mother's, but somehow she's still convinced my husband and I (and all gay people) are fundamentally miserable. LOL)

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 4:41pm

I wouldn't call MacDermot's talent pedestrian at all. He's just stylistically very different. I don't think he ever intended to write like other composers. He wrote what he wanted in his style and he did indeed create some iconic tunes out of Hair. His style may not be to everyone's tastes, but I find him to be melodically gifted. I wouldn't call him first-rate, but then I never got a sense he demanded it. I don't expect all the music I admire to come from first-rate composers any more than I expect every composer to be compared to Sondheim.

[Gaveston2]

Posted: 11/29/11 at 5:54pm

And MacDermott's work on HAIR is especially impressive when you consider he often had drug-induced, stream-of-consciousness lyrics to set to music.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 11/30/11 at 12:46am

I'm not a massive MacDermott fan, though I do love a lot of Hair, but I think to condemn him as pedestrian and "nursery rhyme" like is a bit too simplistic. Hair does, often anyway, manage to have a score that both did sound like contemporary rock music of the time, and was theatrically effective.