Sunset Blvd: Are Manfred & his team funny, or harmful stereotypes?

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 1:33pm

Over in the Miss Saigon Previews Thread, there is much debate over whether that show portrays Asian women as harmful stereotypes. In a post on 3/10/17, WhizzerMarvin refers to similar complaints that:

"...gay men can only be characters if they're A) the sassy best friend sidekick who has no personal life of his own and is completely neutered sexually or B) a tragic figure dying of AIDS."

This comment reminded me of a thought I had while watching the revival of Sunset Boulevard last week. Not having seen any previous productions, I don't know how the dressers have been depicted in "The Lady's Paying" scene, but in the revival they are all essentially mincing stereotypes who leer and attempt to take ostensibly unwelcome physical liberties with Joe Gillis. Hands with tape measures are repeatedly thrust at various "private" areas of Joe's body, and the end of the scene has Manfred himself lecherously peeping through a crack in a dressing screen to get a look at Joe as he's changing clothes.

I laughed numerous times throughout this scene - it is clearly intended to be lighthearted and humorous, and it ends with Joe playfully turning the tables by smacking Manfred on the butt - but I also found myself wondering if I should be laughing at it. Is this innocuous fun, or is it reinforcement of a harmful stereotype which purports that all gay men are effeminate "poofs" who, given the slightest opportunity, will make unwelcome sexual advances toward any straight man who stands still long enough?

Updated On: 3/13/17 at 01:33 PM

[10086sunset]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 1:37pm

I'll say this for the scene, it's certainly dated.

It's one big, loud stereotype. 

 

Updated On: 3/13/17 at 01:37 PM

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 1:51pm

This is also being discussed over at ATC.

http://www.talkinbroadway.com/allthatchat_new/d.php?id=2368247

 

(I can't really add to this since the only production of SB I've seen was the first revival in London, and I don't remember that scene sticking out to me for the reasons mentioned here.)

[evic]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 3:12pm

I found the scene repulsive and ridiculous in the original.  At the era it takes place, most of the tailors and dressers would most likely have been older Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe, not mincing queens trying to grab a feel.

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 5:31pm

evic said: "I found the scene repulsive and ridiculous in the original."

To be clear, you're saying that you saw the original 90s production, right? And the scene was presented in a similar fashion then to what I described above for the current revival?

[Scarywarhol]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 5:50pm

It's also one of the show's most ridiculous pieces of adaptation, turning a sly moment from the film in which Joe is quietly being seduced by this lifestyle into a loud and over-the-top would-be comedy production number. The sissy stereotypes made me a bit uncomfortable this time around, but I don't think that's as bad as the show completely missing the intention of why the scene existed in the source material. 

[Bettyboy72]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 5:52pm

I saw the original staging with Diahann Carroll and I don't recall any groping or peeking. I recall the lead clerk being slightly fey but Joe being more agitated by their overbearing nature. 

I am a gay male and most gay men have a sense of humor. The times I have seen the revival there were many gay men there laughing at the scene. It didn't deeply offend me, but maybe that is because I am socialized to humor at the expense of gay men in this way. I also know that most gay men know a gay male like this who is more flamboyant, fresh and cheeky even with straight men. So while not appropriate for the time period, it is a bit of a lark.

Also, Joe slapping him on the bottom and laughing denotes he is not offended. I'd be more bothered if Joe were angry or pretending to deck the guy. There are many musicals where women are pursued or attempted to be grabbed by men during a song so I didn't see a huge issue with this. Also, the men measuring him are not outwardly gay or flamboyant they are just going up his inseam and he hasn't given them permission. He is annoyed and overwhelmed at the moment. The other clerks are somewhat neutral but presentational, not flaming like the lead. 

I still really enjoy the line, "Im still your greatest fan" to Norma as she coyly looks at him with ardor. It's a cute moment most gay men can relate to. I think ALW giving a nod to the diva worship of gay men is sweet. 

I don't put this in the camp of what Asian women contend with. When I look at bios of Asian actresses and see Miss Saigon in most of their credits I cringe. I see that opening scene and notice them scantily clad and the male ensemble grabbing their buttocks and breasts, slapping their bottoms and carrying them. I think of the actresses playing those parts. I also think of the Asian actress in Priscilla who has to talk in broken English and shoot ping pong balls out of her snatch. Pretty demeaning, even though you are in character. I wonder if there is an emotional toll. 

[Princeton2]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 6:07pm

Considering how many gay men work in the industry I'm always surprised how narrow minded and stereotypical gay men portrayals are in musical theatre. Almost always used to get a cheap laugh.

Finding Neverland had  joke about fairies in theatre too.

 

[Lot666]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 6:29pm

Bettyboy72 said: "...most gay men have a sense of humor. The times I have seen the revival there were many gay men there laughing at the scene."

My experience was the same. The audience seemed to consist almost entirely of gay men and well-dressed, middle-aged (and older) straight couples, with scarcely any 20s, teens, or (thankfully) children. Most of the gay men seemed to find the scene amusing and they did most of the laughing.

Bettyboy72 said: "I also know that most gay men know a gay male like this who is more flamboyant, fresh and cheeky even with straight men. So while not appropriate for the time period, it is a bit of a lark."

Agreed. Virtually all gay men have at least one (probably more) high-spirited, flamboyant, campy friend who enjoys naughty flirtation like this.

Bettyboy72 said: "Also, Joe slapping him on the bottom and laughing denotes he is not offended. I'd be more bothered if Joe were angry or pretending to deck the guy."

This is a critical point, and that's why I mentioned it in my original post. The first time I saw the show, the scene was a bit troubling to me until Mr. Xavier zipped up his pants and then smacked Manfred's butt with a big smile on his face. I agree completely with the suggestion that this action denotes.

Bettyboy72 said: "I still really enjoy the line, "Im still your greatest fan" to Norma as she coyly looks at him with ardor. It's a cute moment most gay men can relate to. I think ALW giving a nod to the diva worship of gay men is sweet."

I agree with you here as well. Thanks for helping me see parts of this scene in a different light.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 3/13/17 at 7:51pm

Bettyboy72, thank you! Your thoughtfulness and understanding is needed in the Miss Saigon thread (though I understand if you don't want to go in there).

[Comden Green]

Posted: 5/31/17 at 10:17am

I saw the show last week and loved it.  but that one scene horrified me.  it wasn't funny and it was offensive.  I didn't laugh.  I heard no one else laughing.   That was encouraging to me.  Many years ago it would have brought the house down. 

Many of you are pondering and concluding that the story or the adaptation makes the stereotype appropriate.  The other aspect ot be considered is the fact that the behaviors are put in the show with the intention of making the audience laugh.   That alone makes it offensive.  would a black character ever be allowed that bows and scrapes and raves about watermelon and fried chicken for the purpose of comic relief?  No, never.

This is the same. 

I was pleased my audience did not see the humor. 

Shame on the production for making the decision to try to get laughs that way.

[muscle23ftl]

Posted: 5/31/17 at 11:34am

"I think ALW giving a nod to the diva worship of gay men is sweet" ---totally agreed. I don't find it offensive.

[TheThreadMaster]

Posted: 5/31/17 at 11:37am

They didnt write the song to poke a laugh at how the male fashion designer can be sassy and stereotpically gay, they wrote to advance the plot in what Joe would wear to party. They are developing Norma's obsession by showing the gravity of the things she was doing for Joe. Heck, she closed down the finest men's shop for the day and paid for every piece of clothing that entered. Personally, I think it is a very entertaining number and I sing it around the house all the time. If you can get to a point where you think "alright i guess that's just how he is" and move away from "this is an offensive number and it places labels on male fashion aficionados and it is such a stereotype" then enjoy! And who said they were using this scene for laughs? I swear there is to much hyper-sensitivity going on. Just my two cents.

[Comden Green]

Posted: 5/31/17 at 2:00pm

It is possible to have a flamboyant gay character without being offensive.    That was not done here.  It was offensive.  And if you think it was not done for laughs then you are in denial.  

 

I didn't say the scene was offensive.  The portrayal by the character was offensive.    

 

Again,   Would it be ok to have a black character raving about watermelon and fried chicken?      No one in their right mind would say so.  This is the same thing.   It's not being overly sensitive.  Some things are not appropriate.    This is one.  

[Princeton2]

Posted: 5/31/17 at 4:28pm

The current West End production of Half A Sixpence has generated a similar debate thanks to an overly camp photographer character. 

Legally Blonde in London i seem to remember had an assistant in the salon mincing about for laughs to.

[BuddyStarr]

Posted: 6/1/17 at 11:28am

The original London production didn't portray it this way either.  I think it was the revival directors choice.  Originally the character was very high brow and not at all mincing.  This revival is way over the top and plays the whole scene for comedy and not for the "Joe is getting overwhelmed with the controlling nature of Norma"  I too found it too over the top. There was no need.