Sweeney Todd questions (WARNING: Possible spoilers!) — Page 4

You're right that there are things we'll have to agree to disagree. I adore Lupone, so, I too am biased in her favor. I find her Mrs Lovett to be devilishly delightful, sexy, and hilarious. But I certainly won't flame you for not liking her- to each his/her own.

I do strongly disagree on your assessments about Anthony and Johanna, though. I find "Kiss Me" to be hilarious in ways other productions haven't been. I've never seen a production of "Sweeney Todd" in which the audience laughed SO MUCH during this song. The reduced orchestrations and the fact that you can clearly make out the lyrics certainly help, but I also find Lauren Molina and Benjamin Magnuson to be delightfully goofy during this song. Maybe you saw it with a weak audience (which, sadly, often hinders our appreciation of a show), but usually, this song is played to be delightful, funny, and sweet.

I do agree that a show SHOULDN'T require its audience to be familiar with the text. I do. But, personally, I don't mind it. And to be fair to John Doyle, I don't really agree that a person who's NEVER seen or heard about Sweeney Todd can't understand the show. I know of MANY people who saw this production, and had NO idea what Sweeney Todd was, and completely understood everything. I think any person who's attentive can easily understand what's going on.

I agree about the coffin, and had already said it was too heavy handed. But I really don't mind it that much.

And I see your point about Sweeney's descent. But I really don't interpret it the same way. I don't see this production as being a collection of insane people acting out the various parts (and I've talked about this way too much, so I won't go into it again). So I don't really see Sweeney's vulnerability as medical sedation, but rather, the result of the bitterness and wrongs he's suffered. His spirit has been destroyed. Sweeney's not just out for revenge against those who specifically harmed him, but society as a whole. Therefore, it doesn't phase me that he would enjoy killing from the very start- NO ONE is innocent, in his view. Not even Anthony. We're all part of the human race, so we ALL deserve to die.

But, again, this production is open to so many different interpretations, and I love discussing it with people who disagree with me. You're obvioualy an intelligent person, and your reasons for not liking this show are very valid. And I completely see your point, even if I do disagree on some things. It's not the usual "I hated it, it sucks" argument one often hears, so it's refreshing!

I'm on my way to see "Bernarda Alba" now, but I'll be back later to see what more you had to say. And anyone else, feel free to jump in (but no insults! Let's keep at least this thread in a civilized tone!)

Sorry to butt in the debate, Targem and Chica! This is really interesting.

Re: the whole audiences not understanding without having prior knowledge, I took my parents to see it, and they didn't have any problems understanding what was happening. All I told them beforehand is that they might find it a little weird, since they are pretty conventional with their theatrical tastes, and yet they loved it and were gripped the whole time. I think a lot of the details in this production obviously mean so much more if you know the piece but you can still appreciate most of it as long as you're willing to concentrate and think. That's the problem, it seems to me. Not that it's incomprehensible, but just that it's difficult. You have to be willing to think. Should theatre not be difficult just because tourists who see it might not understand it? Why can't there be difficult things that require work as well as Wickeds and Phantoms?

Sure, an audience who doesn't know it won't know what the hell is happening in 'City on Fire', but I don't think that's a vital part of the story. :) And I've only seen the UK production, so it may be a directorial or acting change - but Johanna in 'Kiss Me' certainly seemed goofy and childlike and not yet completely broken; that came later.

Is it true that the Pirelli being a woman originally came about because Doyle realised that the male and female voices would be uneven in chorus singing moments unless there was one more woman? I think I remember reading this. So, heh, this might be the real reason behind it and all the fun theories we are coming up with could be very silly, but so cool! I love yours, BroadwayChica!

joshy: You are right about the nedd to even out the feamle chrus voices. That's why they had a woman play Pirelli.

jonartdesigns: I think a beadle is a law-enforcement person, sort of like the Chief of Police.

back to the topic of the thread, I loved this production and think much of the symbolism really works. I was, though, somewhat confused with the baby coffin, but it didn't distract me. I also felt the humor truly came through in this production. In a Little Priest, I have always found the song funny, but in this production I found myself laughing at every joke, because the lyrics really do come through so much clearer.

Just my two cents.

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Refreshing is the exact word I used after I saw the show. Its a good wake up call to audiences. I believe people get so much more out of shows like these then ...er...more straight forwards shows.

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"I told her she had to actually listen to the lyrics since no song in "Sweeney" is just a filler for space, and she gave me an "Oh bulls**t" and huffed away."

LOL!!!

They're both great.
I think there should be an "ensemble" Tony given to the entire cast for this production. What is asked of them is so unique and they do such a paticularly spectacualr job at executing the tremendous tasks required of them night after night, (after matinee after matinee - sheesh!)
I don't know that Broadway has ever seen the likes of such a thing, and I wish that the production and cast was handsomely and creatively awarded/rewarded for it's brilliance. That way, maybe more people will come and see the show, be inspired, and get to experience what a great communicative artform theater CAN be.
Viva John Doyle!

Updated On: 2/24/06 at 04:32 PM

I just saw the show last night, and was totally blown away. I'm lucky I read this thread, or else I wouldn't have picked up half of the things that were going on. I agree that this should definately win Best Ensemble. This was the first time I saw it live, but I've watched both DVDs many times, and was actually expecting to be let down by this one. Thankfully, I was wrong. I thout Michael and Patti's performances were superb, and truly loved the rest of the cast. Lauren Molina and Alex Gemignani were my favorites, though. I've never seen the Beadle get any laughs, but Alex got A TON. I loved it, and this def. won't be my last time seeing it.

Alex is ****ing hiLARious!
Glad you saw it and loved it, and glad the thread could help.
Yay!

Hey!
Everyone go read the "worst show poster" thread - I just posted and vented about sweeney's, and I'd love you guys to check it out and respond, if so moved.
I'm on page 4

Thanks!

Updated On: 2/24/06 at 05:41 PM

Oh I believe Manoel should get all the buzz and nominations/awards he deserves! He was amazing! But I was just trying to say that Benjamin is also amazing and I wish he would get more recognition... But no doubt, Manoel was FABULOUS and I'm pulling for him for the Best Featured Actor award at the Tonys!

Wow, I saw this in New York City on Wednesday and I must admit, after seeing it I, too, really couldn't wrap my head around it. I wasn't sure if I loved or hated it. Now after reading the thread, I realize that it is definitely the former. There were so many things that thinking back on I noticed but thought nothing of, and you all have helped me so much in actually making sense of the production. I wish that I had more insight into the show, but I feel that I would just be redundant because I'd mostly be restating everything that's already been said.

I will most definitely be frequenting this thread, everything written here has been so thought provoking and has really helped me in fully understanding the show. So with that, thank you!

"I just think it's an interesting directorial and acting choice."

No, it definitely is. I just think it truly would be a stronger message if they had gone through and switched all references to Pirelli to feminine pronouns. It's still significant sex/gender-wise to even have a female playing a male character and imbuing the character with feminine traits, but I really wish they'd gone all the way and just made the character a woman--without all the ambiguities.

This production really gets inside a person's head. I can't remember the last time I was so obsessed with a show. I wanted to see it again tonight, but I think I'll go on Sunday instead.

I think that the character of Pirelli has to be a man. Tobais says in "Not While I'm Around" ...."Oh, I know you fancy him, but men ain't like women, they ain't wot you can trust, as I've lived and learned."
Pirelli is not one to be trusted...as none of the men are in the show, even Anthony.
That's why I think Pirelli must be a male character...but you're right, they needed to balance out the man/woman ratio of the actors.

"I was just rereading this thread, and this has really nothing to do with Sweeney itself, but the idea of art therapy at an insane asylum reminded me of the play Marat/Sade."

Yup. This was commented on in many of the reviews for the show. I think this production stands alone, but there's certainly an element that reminds one of Marat/Sade.

"I think that the character of Pirelli has to be a man. Tobais says in "Not While I'm Around" ...."Oh, I know you fancy him, but men ain't like women, they ain't wot you can trust, as I've lived and learned." Pirelli is not one to be trusted...as none of the men are in the show, even Anthony."

I've never said that Pirelli IS a woman, but rather, that this production purposely leaves some ambiguity as to gender roles through this character. Only when Pirelli drops his/her accent, does his more "feminine" side become apparent: And Tobias never witnesses this. Therefore, in terms of gender ROLES, Pirelli the Italian has assumed the role of a man. And certainly, Tobias has known Pirelli to be a man (and also, arguably, a maternal figure) Only when faced with Sweeney Todd, is there a gender reversal: the fake pompous Italian accent becomes a soft, feminine voice. And in terms of gender roles, Pirelli becomes a sort of scorned female, or ex lover.

In other words, I don't necessarily think that there's a LITERAL interpretation in which Pirelli IS a woman dressed as a man. But there's an ambiguity that allows for different interpretations in terms of gender identities and representations.

I hope that was at least mildly coherent. :p