The Nightingale Casting- Page 2

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:35pm

Part of me was hoping -- as much as I loved Erin Quill's scathing post -- that this topic would never make it to the board and part of me was hoping it would evolve into a really good discussion of race and casting.

Most of the reason for the former was because I was afraid there would just be a litany of Asian jokes. I was really not expecting them to happen within an hour of the thread being created.

Yeah, part of me would rather have had no discussion than any because I had such low expectations.

Way to go.

[masterwolfie]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:38pm

@PhyllisRogersStone - yes, I'm starting to see what you mean xD I guess part of me was kind of hoping that some sort of serious discussion would catch on and get loud enough to make the creative team self-aware, and change their ways in the future, etc but obviously the chances of that were pretty slim in the first place.

@Sally1112 - Please share once you see it!

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:40pm

Really, Jordan? You called me racist before in another post. Pot meet kettle.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:45pm

Lizzie, I didnt post it either because of the same reason. I seem to recall an off topic post a couple years ago that just ended up in the same racist remarks. One was "cum of sum young guy". Don't know if it's around, because I requested it to be deleted.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:45pm

Masterwolfie, I discussed this blog a couple of days ago with two other posters from here and we were all in agreement that none of us wanted to be the one to post it.

And I'm not singling out Jordan here, because this happens literally every single time a discussion is had about color-blind casting, or even hypothetical color-blind casting. If not inappropriate racial jokes, then someone (pretending to be serious) will claim "Well, when are we going to see a white Effie in Dreamgirls (or Joe in Show Boat, etc)" or someone says that if "they" want to play parts "they" should write their own.

Or it devolves into a screed against "political correctness," but as someone who gets accused of being "politically correct" I find that the people who use the term are generally those who are against what they think political correctness is. It's not really about tiptoeing around people. It's about just not being a dick.


Updated On: 7/10/12 at 05:45 PM

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:45pm

Oh suck it. There's a difference between me making a joke I thought was funny that didn't work and some of the crap you spew.

Go piss in your pathetic little pot.

[masterwolfie]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:47pm

LizzieCurry - I was aware that jokes would appear in the thread at some point, but I figured it'd still be better to share the post to let people know that this is happening and this is not okay. I mean, one thing that has to change in the Asian American community is the propensity to sit back, stay silent, and do nothing. A serious discussion that has to take place in between other types of posts is still a discussion.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:49pm

I AM Asian American and perhaps extremely jaded.

I have been talking about this on other forms of social media, though.

[masterwolfie]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:50pm

Wow this thread is moving really fast xD Phyllis Rogers Stone - I see what you mean, and I guess this board probably is not the best medium for what I had in mind...is there any way to block new posts or anything?

[dramamama611]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:51pm

But why give attention to those that aren't actually discussing the issue at hand? You had a good number of people that were troubled by this and you could have LET it be about that.
When we give voice to the contrary it speaks with most volume. Ignore it, and your actual conversation can continue.


Anyway....I find it disturbing. I don't think you could ever convicne me that they couldn't find talented, experienced asian actors to fully cast this. I would think they would WANT to. I do, however, appreciate that in both the blog and the letter posted here, that both specifically voice that they in no way hold the actors that have been cast in any ill light.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:54pm

You raise a good point -- the next time something like this comes up (and I hope it doesn't), it'd probably be best to include in the original post that attempts to be funny with racist jokes won't really help the situation. (And I do not mean this at all sarcastically.)

That said, I gave Jordan the attention because he needed to be called out, as does anybody who pulls that crap.

AS FOR THE MUSICAL ITSELF, this is happening in La Jolla, California. La Jolla! As Erin Quill said -- not that all-white Hairspray. I'd be all for it if they wanted to cast The Nightingale completely across the entire spectrum of the United Nations (for example: oh, the Les Miz revival...), but casting Kimiko Glenn and Nikki Castillo just seems like a condescending bone-throw.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:55pm

Jordan - and I assuming your comment isn't directed at me because we posted at the same time - maybe it's finally time you ponder why some many DON'T think those kinds of jokes are funny.

Fact is, no matter what your intent, jokes about Asian people switching Rs and Ls (or pretty much any kind of joke that picks a racial stereotype to laugh about) are kind of racist.

Updated On: 7/10/12 at 05:55 PM

[Playbilly]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 5:58pm

Moises Kaufman should know better. Really.

[HOUFlip04]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:01pm

At least the "crap I spew" are things I stand behind, and didn't delete after saying them.

Sorry. You are right, dramamama. I am glad you pointed that out. I respected the fact that they did not say anything negative about the actors cast.

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:01pm

No of course it wasn't directed at you. M

And racism is about intent. I made a joke that I thought was (if not hilarious) a little numerous. If I wanted to offend, I'm sure I could do that using much different intent. Actual racism is about intent of words and mine were not meant to offend. I make the same about lots of people. If I make a joke about lesbians, do I hate them? If I joke about Jews, am I self hating Jew?

I sent a PM to lizzie apologizing when I realized I had offended because thats the last thing I wanted to do. I was asked to post it publicly so I did. If it's still not accepted then there's nothing I can do about that.

And that's all I have to say about that. (sorry if I offended anyone with whatever Forrest Gump had)

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:16pm

It's cool if you're done with the thread, but I'm going to respond to some of your thoughts, for the benefit of others.

No, racism doesn't have to be about intent. That's why I was careful to say what you said was racist, not that you were racist. Even if you make those kinds of jokes with Asian friends, they're still racist. None of you may be racist, but just because you're laughing at the jokes because they are racist doesn't diffuse them of their racism.

I don't know what kind of jokes you're making about lesbians, but yeah, jokes about stereotypes are generally based in a some kind of homphobia, or racism or misogyny or whatever word applies to the group being ridiculed. But that's all part of a bigger conversation that I find nearly impossible to have on this board.

I always find Jay Smooth a good person to listen to on stuff like this. This is just a snippet, but the whole thing is worth checking out.

The first thing that makes it difficult to accept that critique, that you may have said something racist, is simply that it involves the possibility that you made a mistake. None of us takes that too well, none of us enjoys that, but in most other situations, when the possibility arises that we made a mistake, we're usually able to take a few deep breaths and tell ourselves, “I’m only human, everyone makes mistakes.”

But when it comes to conversations involving race and prejudice, for some reason we tend to make the opposite assumption. We deal with race and prejudice with this all or nothing, good person/bad person binary in which either you are racist or you are not racist. As if everyone is either batting a thousand or striking out every at bat. And this puts us in a situation where we’re striving to meet an impossible standard. It means any suggestion that you’ve made a mistake, any suggestion that you’ve been less than perfect, is a suggestion that you’re a bad person.

So we become averse to any suggestion that we should consider our thoughts and actions, and this makes it harder for us to work on our imperfections. When you believe that you must be perfect in order to be good, it makes you averse to recognizing your own inevitable imperfections and that lets them stagnate and grow.
"How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love Discussing Race."

[Jordan Catalano]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:25pm

Ok well unlike most people on this board, I took the time to apologize for offending and posting something that upset someone and obviously it's still not good enough.

So go ahead and bash this Jew Fag who grew up in the south and knows nothing about people saying things to intentionally offend.

[Kad]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:40pm

I love this board both for its copious amount of genuinely great humor, as well as the number of posts and members that are likewise genuinely interesting and insightful. Unfortunately, overlapping the two on a topic such as race never yields good results.

Jordan did apologize and I certainly have no reason to doubt his sincerity... and he is one of the few on this board that actually WILL apologize when he's been wrong.

[masterwolfie]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 6:52pm

"You raise a good point -- the next time something like this comes up (and I hope it doesn't), it'd probably be best to include in the original post that attempts to be funny with racist jokes won't really help the situation. (And I do not mean this at all sarcastically.)"
@Lizzie - Was this meant for me? I can still go back and add some sort of disclaimer to the original post, but ironically (considering the topic of the thread) it feels kind of weird that I'd have to do that xD
Also, is there a way to quote people on this board? Like a button that does it or anything?

I'm not sure if the production team has said anything about not being able to find anyone, but I agree that's really not much of a defense. San Diego aside, two hours away you'll find Los Angeles, Monterey Park, Alhambra, and if the casting process started there, New York City is not exactly devoid of Asian American acting talent.
Maybe they casted the show intentionally and without malice, because they wanted to have a "rainbow" cast, but that sort of intent is misguided in a world where Asian Americans struggle to get roles and are underrepresented in media. If they were intending to be "progressive", I'd have to say that it's not working because all they've managed to do is make at least one Asian American person feel more invisible.

It looks like the first performance is only a few hours away. I wonder if any of the reviewers will point this out?

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 7:45pm

masterwolfie: No, don't worry about it. That wasn't meant for you. :) I actually love that a super-frequent poster was not the one to post it here; you don't come with as much baggage, if you get what I mean.
If you want to quote someone, it's best to just copy/paste and make that selection italic. It's archaic, but that's the best way to do it here.

Jordan: Racism is NOT about intent. Here's the deal. You make a seemingly innocuous comment and it is not called out, then the cycle of racism continues. Yes, this is racism. Little things are microaggressions that add up to bigger aggressions. That dehumanize that group. That is not a good snowball effect.

[givesmevoice]

Posted: 7/10/12 at 7:54pm

I don't even feel like wading through some of the posts in this thread, but this casting is ridiculous (as has already been said). I don't really have much to add in that area, but I did want to mention that even though it's a small victory, I was really happy to see J. Elaine Marcos cast as Lily in Annie. Not only was I happy to see colorblind casting, I was especially happy to see an Asian-American actress.

[PalJoey]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 11:13pm

This was just posted:

===

PLEASE HELP.

We were greatly disheartened to learn today that La Jolla Playhouse cannot confirm participation of the creative team (writers Duncan Sheik and Steven Sater and director Moises Kaufman) even though the timing of the panel was originally slated to accommodate their schedules.

Our position is that a refusal on the part of the creative team from participating in this open dialogue amounts to a disavowal of any wrongdoing or accountability on their part. We strongly urge them to reconsider.

Though we do not believe that a fully fleshed out discussion about the casting decisions in THE NIGHTINGALE can be achieved without the creative team's participation, we have decided to attend in spite of this development. It is our belief, with all of the national press and community support that will be present, that we still have an opportunity to influence a deeper understanding of the social implications of their actions. This is not just about one show but is part of a larger national dialogue as it has long lasting ramifications on future productions.

WHAT YOU CAN DO: If you are as disheartened as we are, we ask that you take a minute to send a message to La Jolla Playhouse via their Facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/LaJollaPlayhouse

and urge them to ensure that one or more of the creative team appear on the panel tomorrow.

[Phyllis Rogers Stone]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 11:21pm

Well, as much as I hate to keep treading into this, I do kind of think that this

Our position is that a refusal on the part of the creative team from participating in this open dialogue amounts to a disavowal of any wrongdoing or accountability on their part.

feels kinda right. I don't know.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 11:24pm

Wait, where did you see that? Did they delete it? I see some reactions to it (here: https://www.facebook.com/LaJollaPlayhouse/posts/10151108733115941 and here: https://www.facebook.com/LaJollaPlayhouse/posts/10151108753660941) but no actual post from the La Jolla Playhouse.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/21/12 at 11:51pm

OK, so AAPAC posted it. Did they link it to the LJP's page?

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=414982475203843&id=274685732556028