The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

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The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:19pm

Ok, I am not the biggest Wildhorn fan, and I have not seen Pimpernel, but I've been listening to the OBCR all day, and I don't quite understand why it wasn't a hit. It's really quite charming - with a tuneful score that is most excellent. I am assuming there must have been bigger problems than those evident on the OBCR, so what were they?

I love "The Scarlet Pimpernel", "The Seek Him Here" and "The Creation of Man" best. Wonderful pieces. I didn't really listen to the recording much, until today, and was surprised on how enjoyable it is. Much more so than J&H and CW.

"What the hell happened to you? You look like a Make-A-Wish Kid. You know, I just knew you were gonna bring shame on this new family of ours, and it just figures you had to go make yourself over into some heroin-shootin skate board chic on the only day E! could interview you!" - Cherry Cherry, on her daughter Mary Cherry

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 07:19 PM

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:24pm

add jekyl and hyde, the civil war, and dracula, along with pimpernel. what do they have in common? Frank Wildhorn. He's a great composer, as good as Sondheim in my opinion, but the audiences just dont catch on to his stuff. its sad, really.

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:27pm

I, personally, think he's the target of unfair criticism. J&H got off to a good start (the concept recording is nice, but needed better orchestrations), but they ruined it for Broadway. It was much better on tour, with "I Need to Know" and "Bring on the Men", among others, back in the score. The Civil War was a misfire IMO because the score didn't reflect the time period at all.

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:41pm

None of his scores reflect any sort of time period. Wildhorn has said himself that he writes musical theatre "pop music." And perhaps if pop music worked for the musical theatre, he would be more popular. Unfortunately, a musical theatre score requires a bit more thinking through, and the best are filled with complex melodies that parallel the complex situations and lyrics that bring the story forward in terms of not only plot, but character also. Oscar Hammerstein was the first major lyricist to do this. He then passed on his gifts to his young man neighbor, Steven Sondheim. To compare, and deem equal Frank Wildhorn to either of these men is a travesty. Wildhorn's music neither works towards reflecting the dramatic arc, nor makes any attempt at lyrics beyond the basic, predictable melodrama of most of his show's plot's. And for this reason, his shows usually DO SOUND GOOD on CD. But seeing them put into action in a theatre (his intention) is a totally different matter. Sure, he provides pop melodies that anyone can drive around to and confuse for the local soft rock station, but as for theatrical scores...well...he's a joke. And it makes me mad that he so openly admits to writing pop, and never achieving for anything much more than a hummable melody.

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:44pm

I love SP and I believe it got better as time moved on and it's changes progressed.
Such a GREAT show.

Wildhorn is a GREAT composer, and I believe that SP and J&H show that.

Of course I have a bit of a bias because "This is the Moment" was my friend's favorite song to perform, and it convinced me to become an actor.

David walked into the valley With a stone clutched in his hand He was only a boy But he knew someone must take a stand There will always be a valley Always mountains one must scale There will always be perilous waters Which someone must sail -Into the Fire Scarlet Pimpernel

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:56pm

Had Pimpy opened on Broadway in its 3.0 version I think it would have faired better. It would have gotten batter reviews and there would not have been that period between closing the show down and reopening it as a different piece. the version currently being offered by Tams-Witmark is superb and it's a shame there was never an actual recording made of the 3.0 version. not all the songs in the show are pop songs. the overture and entr'acte clearly reflect a more period piece work and music style. you try passing "They Seek Him Here" as a pop ballad and see how far you get.

Dracula I think was his best attempt at writing an actual theatre score. it's dark, melodic and haunting. it clearly reflects a more mysterious time period. although, it's kinda hard to notice this with Don Black and Christopher Hampton's mess... now, this was in La Jolla. for Broadway they added "The Perfect Life" and "If I Could Fly" and lost all hope as passing it as a legitimate score but it was quite something prior to the changes that were made for Broadway. not that I don't like those songs cuz' I do, but they're really just for show not plot.

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 07:56 PM

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 7:57pm

The critics scared the audience away with their crusade to rid the world of Frank Wildhorn & his music

Poster Emeritus

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 07:57 PM

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:06pm

Funny, right now I'm listening to The Scarlet Pimpernel! It's 'Prayer'. Sigh, Doug Sills is SO GOOD. I'm distraught that he dropped out of Spamalot. Ah well, we still have TIM CURRY!

But yes, Frank Wildhorn. I agree that the critics scare people away from his shows. I have been to Drac several times and talked to fellow audience members who were worried upon coming in, but loved it by intermission. He does his job. I am NOT saying he is Sondheim (as I am a DIE-HARD Sondheim fan and think he is just perfection--before Bounce--but let's not go there), but he creates enjoyable music. He needs to find himself a better lyricist and book writer. Fast.

I loved The Scarlet Pimpernel, I loved Jekyll and Hyde, I love Dracula. It's just FUN, you know? Do I think that musical theater should be more than fun? ABSOLUTELY! But I go see cheesy romantic comedies just as much as I see movies that move me. Theater is no different. One needs variety.

HOWEVER, when there ends up being more "FUN" musicals than "MEANINGFUL" musicals, something is drastically wrong here.

(That was a blatant curse to musicals such as Mamma Mia, All Shook Up and Good Vibrations. At least Wildhorn writes original music for his shows--even if some of them are just variations of his old songs hehe. Yeah.)

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:07pm

There were three versions of SP on broadway as I recall. The second Bobby Longbottom directed version was probably the best reviewed show of Wildhorn. Even the NY Times liked it. It just wasn't a good fit with the tourist trade.

I've been a supporter of Wildhorn for years and thought his shows could work given the right collaborators, which I think was proven with the Longbottom directed SP. However, all of his other shows, except for certain elements, have been failures IMO and he really has had more chances than most.

I still think pop could work on broadway...the popularity of Dreamgirls and Chess would seem to support this, but even those shows weren't so critically popular. The theatre elite still dictates taste and they have totally closed their minds to the possibility of a pop score sucessfully succeeding in telling a musical story. It's true that recent examples seem to support their assertions, but I'd personally like to see some new blood come along and prove the critics wrong here. That would require them to be open-minded though, which I believe is nearly impossible where pop is concerned.

And then they'll bemoan the death of broadway..when in fact, IMO, it's due at least in part to an unwillingness to move forward and embrace the music of the day.

#10

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:22pm

BTW, just read the thing about Doug Sills coming back to Bway in that 'Making of Gone With the Wind' play! YAY!!!! Too bad it's not a musical

I looooooove his voice. Ah well, will just have to go see Gavin sing all the more to make up for it!

#11

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:24pm

Both Dreamgirls and Chess are both brilliant (Dreamgirls being the epitome of pop theatre), whereas most of Wildhorn's shows pick absurd topics with poor execution. Believe it or not even the farthest out topic can be executed brilliantly (Assassins, Sweeney Todd, freaking Hair or Avenue Q!)

#12

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:25pm

It could be because while Wildhorne's music is "pretty" its dull and unrememberable.

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#13

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 8:40pm

I saw this recently in a local production, and have been listening to the Encore recording (the only one I could find in the library). I love it. Wish I could have seen it when it was on broadway, though. Doug Sills is amazing in it.

-If you don't like your fate, change it. You are your own master.- Aida

#14

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:16pm

Well, I would argue the score is more "period" than Wildhorn's other scores, and the use of the harpiscord illustrates that. In terms of the score echoing what the lyrics and story are saying, listen to the title song - it's absolutely brilliant and the score echos the lyrics exceptionally well.

While I enjoy J&H, I think the score is not nearly as good as SP.

People often slam Wildhorn for his failure to write "period" music, but which shows have really done that? RENT and Hairspray defnitely do, but anyone who thinks the scores of Les Miz and POTO are period is gravely mistaken.

#15

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:19pm

"unrememberable"?

If you mean unmemorable, then it would hardly explain the popularity of This is the Moment and Someone Like You long before J&H opened on Broadway. The Scarlet Pimpernel was his best show, I thought. I saw the first Broadway version and the tour and found it to be fun, romantic, and quite memorable in score and staging. The first version was much stronger and needed no tampering. It was a delight from beginning to end and I thought it was a real shame that it never took off. If Broadway had to live up to the high standards of today's critics, it would never have dies decades ago.

"What can you expect from a bunch of seitan worshippers?" - Reginald Tresilian

#16

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:21pm

I'm not saying he's Sondheim, but who is? I mean really, who today is as good as Sondheim? No one! Sondheim is absolutely brilliant, and shows like Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods illustrate that.

When I see shows like The Lion King (musically) and AIDA achieving hit status, with terrible scores, it causes me to wonder how much influence the critics and Broadway elite really have over what is a success and what isn't? TLK was brilliant visually, but it's score was far too weak to win Best Musical over an original and epic creation like Ragtime. AIDA, quite frankly, should have been an enormous flop. I don't care what any says - it is far was than SP, J&H, CW, and DOTV (to name a few). I am sure AIDA didn't get rave reviews, but I am shocked that anyone would have anything nice to say about the original production (other than Heather).

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 09:21 PM

#17

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:24pm

Theatreboy33, i htink that's a good critique but I'm not that's the reason the shows are not hits. How is his pop music different from Lloyd Webbers or Stephen Schwartz's or Shonbergs?

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 09:24 PM

#18

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:25pm

Exactly, or Elton John's? There's a lot of pop music on Broadway, and a lot of successful shows have featured it. I would argue that SP, by and large, is not really pop music. Furthermore, I think the music is very memoreable. I've been humming it all day.

#19

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:28pm

WHY THE HECK WAS THE BEST SONG IN THE WHOLE SHOW CUT??? "I'll Forget You" is one of the most beautiful and haunting songs in musical theatre...well if it ever makes it into the show...Its simply gorgeous thanks to good old Linda Eder...

And you think of all of the things you've seen, and you wish that you could live in between ,and you're back again only different than before... After the Sky. -Into the Woods (Jack)

#20

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:32pm

You know, I may be in the minority, but I just don't care for Eder - at all. I think part of the problem I intially had with the SP OBCR was that Andreas, to me, sounds an awful lot like Eder.

#21

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:44pm

This musical wasn't a hit because it sucks. Plain and simple. It sucks and so does ole franky,that's prolly why Eder left him, she caught him with a boy toy.

I got rid of my teeth at a young age because... I'm straight. Teeth are for gay people. That's why fairies come and get them

#22

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:48pm

Actually, it's Rachel York who sings "I'll Forget You" in SP2. And I agree, it is absolutely haunting, thanks to her. :)

lc

#23

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:50pm

"How is his pop music different from Lloyd Webbers or Stephen Schwartz's or Shonbergs?"

I dont quite see what you mean when you refer to these composers. Lloyd Webbers music is dinstictly lloyd webber, but i wouldnt quite call it pop. And if you want to compare him to Wildhorn, Webber basically invented the style Wildhorn is attempting to copy (and doing quite the poor job at it). As for the others, even including Webber, it's not as if all of these men's recent shows havent been basically ripped by the critics for the very reasons I've mentioned above. All im trying to explain is that Frank Wildhorn seems to start off with an idea, develop a decent beginning, and then completely throw away any consistency in the musical arc of his shows. While all of his shows surely do have some "period" pieces, they all also have the overly simplistic, poorly lyricized pop ballads that the man has become (in)famous for. And it is these types of songs that ruin the continuity of his shows and basically serve absolutely no purpose in the telling of the story. You could place "It's Only Love" in any of his other musicals at vertually any point, and you wouldnt notice a thing. They are simple, generic, cookie-cutter pieces that lack intelligence, ingenuity, and dramatic flow. Im sorry he gets ripped apart by so many critics, but in my opinion, until he creates something that is solidly written trhough and through, he deserves it.

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 09:50 PM

#24

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 9:59pm

Lloyd Webber is mostly pop and he also comes up with a neat tune and then finds a way to fit it into the story somehow.

#25

re: The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:08pm

bronxboundexpress is right. Most of ALW's scores are largely pop influenced. Furthermore, ALW, "borrows" a fair amount of music...especially in POTO, which is why it failed to win Best Score.

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