The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit? — Page 2

There were a lot internal problems with SP.


RE: Frank Wildhorn, I can't comment on this beyond saying, what's the point? Whether you like Wildhorn or not, he's just another guy writing music and putting his hat in the ring for better or worse.

And if you've ever seen/heard Christine Andreas and Linda Eder live, you would know their vocal styles are alike in no way whatsoever.

Carl, surprisingly tacky comment about which you know very little, I'm sure.

Yeah, I get a little touchy about some things for reasons of my own. Just give people in the business a break...the same break you would like to experience. If you don't like someone's style...don't support him/her...It's just a matter of opinions anyway.

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Updated On: 12/6/04 at 10:18 PM

Well said lovesclassics. I agree with everything you said. SP, to me, is very enjoyable. I also wish more songs from Broadway found their way to the radio, because I would think it would help draw more people to the theater.

Re: Andreas and Eder - they sound very similar to me based on songs like "When I Look At You." I actually think Andreas has a more beautiful voice.

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Loge~ you might hear simialarites, but Andreas has a very pronounced vibrato in most of her work, where Eder has almost no vibrato at all. I've been to concerts of both ladies. Each have very unique and lovely styles, in my opinion.

Sorry, I didn't intend to make your observation invalid... I just get my knickers a little twisted when threads go from "why didn't a show do well?" to " that's cause he sucks" type of mentality.
I'd really like to see some of these tomatoes tossers come to NY and try their hand at composing, and creating! LOL!

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Updated On: 12/6/04 at 10:50 PM

and Loge...
even if POTO was original, Into the Woods would have won best score anyway!

I just wanted to quickly point out that CHESS was a major flop that only ran for 68 performances, while DREAMGIRLS ran for four years, won six Tonys, two Grammys (including one for best R&B female performance for Jennifer Holliday) and "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" stayed at #1 the R&B charts for 4 weeks and hit #24 on the pop charts -- one of the only non-cover singles taken directly from a Broadway original cast album in three decades to top any of the Billboard charts. That pop music can be viable within the musical theatre form goes without sayng. Beyond DREAMGIRLS, HAIR, GODSPELL, TOMMY, HEDWIG, BRING IN DA NOISE, RENT et al have demonstrated that popular musical forms can be used to advance plot and/or enrich character and become the basis for first rate and successful musical shows.

Wildhorn has some very wealthy European investors who are willing to mount his shows here (to get the "cache" of having played Broadway) despite the fact that every one of his shows have lost millions (over $20 million altogether by some estimates) and been panned by the US critics. I don't think that any other composer in the history of Broadway has been so rejected artistically and ignored popularly and yet still gets produced (apparently the European profits are considerable, but we'll see how many more flops Wildhorn will have subsidized in this country -- his main Dutch investor is pulling the plug on Dracula after only a few months losing the entire investment, which also happened to Civil War; we'll see whether the moneymen will be lining up to invest in Frankenstein and Wildhorn's future efforts).

In his shows, Wildhorn (and his collaborators) have yet to demonstrate a consistent ability to use pop music within a narrative, story-telling context. Wildhorn writes good pop tunes that are rather generic in nature and frankly work better outside of the shows they are ostensibly written for (and for some make for entertaining CDs to listen to). Until he and his book writers and lyricists learn to FULLY INTEGRATE his music with a dramatic context, using songs to flesh out and illuminate the characters, to heighten the conflict and tension within plot and to advance the story being told, I'm afraid his shows will continue to be rejected by both both critics and audiences, at least in this country.

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Updated On: 12/7/04 at 12:19 AM

I do agree with you Margo about Wildhorn, even though I still think he takes a lot of abuse for bad lyrics, which he doesnt write. He has had plenty of opportunity to prove himself though.

I also saw Chess on broadway and do realize it was quite the flop both commercially and critically. I can clearly recall critics bashing both the music and the show. But I've also noticed a lot of people from that era who consistantly bash the current pop composers and their big ballads, but love the music to Chess, which really isn't all that different. Dreamgirls did win awards, but as I recall, it received mixed reviews from the major critics.

It seems to me that critics are more open-minded with regard to rock musicals, than pop. There are a few exceptions here I suppose..Billy Joel..is one perhaps, but Elton John's music is regularly bashed too.

Updated On: 12/7/04 at 01:22 AM

Until he and his book writers and lyricists learn to FULLY INTEGRATE his music with a dramatic context, using songs to flesh out and illuminate the characters, to heighten the conflict and tension within plot and to advance the story being told, I'm afraid his shows will continue to be rejected by both both critics and audiences, at least in this country.

Very well put, Margo. Honestly, his music isn't the problem. Put it with a good collaboration in with a good lyricist and good bookwriter, and his music would fare just fine... lots of shows have totally unmemorable music and yet are entertaining, captivating, etc (I won't name shows because I'm sure any show I name will have their disagree-ers).
I can't say much for the first two versions of SP, but having seen SP3 (which, from what I understand, is SP2 with a smaller cast) I found it was in fact a successful collaboration. The book was good, the songs integrated with the plot so that they moved with the storyline (Dracula unfortunately doesn't do this quite as well), and overall it was a fun night of theatre. And quite *funny* at parts as well; a bit of tweaking and they might have been able to market it as a comedy. I think if SP2 or 3 had opened as the original version, it would have faired well.

There's also somethng to say about workshopping. Jekyll and Hyde and Scarlet Pimpernel's "current" (i.e. touring) versions are different than the ones that originally opened on Broadway, with slight improvements. I constantly feel like the Wildhorn musicals just aren't fully workshopped before Broadway, with key structural musical theatre problems. I don't know who's to blame for this... I don't buy it being just Wildhorn's problem.

Dame...you put it so beautifully...

My opinion is the same as Dame's!

Wildhorn's shows are incredily uninteresting, and perhaps the reason Pimpernel wasn't a success is because it is an awful show.

Wildhorn is not incredibly talented, none of his music is in any way original or thrilling, and basically, who cares.

Don't mention Sondheim on a Wildhorn post. Even Stephen Schwartz and Lloyd Webber. All three have created their own versions of musical theatre, while Wildhorn's pieces are just much too cinematic.

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mister choi - I couldn't agree more.

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Good question. My Billboard books are a few years old, so I'll have to check some more recent sources, but I'm pretty certain that nothing from Rent cracked the top 40 (I seem to recall that "Seasons of Love" very briefly hit the top 100, peaking at 90-something). I think the same is true with Wildhorn's stuff, but I'll double check when I get a chance.

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My favorite song from this show is "When I Look at You". It's a gorgeous ballad, with a haunting melody and lyrics that actually hold meaning.