The Scarlet Pimpernel - Why wasn't it a hit?- Page 2

[DickonDefysGravity]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:10pm

Actually I was talking about Linda Eder singing it...and its amazing!!!

[PB ENT.]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:18pm

There were a lot internal problems with SP.


RE: Frank Wildhorn, I can't comment on this beyond saying, what's the point? Whether you like Wildhorn or not, he's just another guy writing music and putting his hat in the ring for better or worse.

And if you've ever seen/heard Christine Andreas and Linda Eder live, you would know their vocal styles are alike in no way whatsoever.

Carl, surprisingly tacky comment about which you know very little, I'm sure.

Yeah, I get a little touchy about some things for reasons of my own. Just give people in the business a break...the same break you would like to experience. If you don't like someone's style...don't support him/her...It's just a matter of opinions anyway.

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 10:18 PM

[jmnpublications]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:23pm

I haven't actually seen THE SCARLET PIMPERNEL (the musical), but I have seen the original movie and listened to Wildhorn's score. In my opinion, the score definitely follows the movie and enhances the story. Without ever having seen the musical, I can picture everything that is happening simply by listening to the score.

Now, I don't know that much about musical styles, pop vs. not, period vs. non-period. To me, that doesn't matter as long as I enjoy the music, it tells a story, and it touches me in some real way. I definitely enjoy the entire score of SP. Now, whether or not it fits with the musical's book, I have no idea. It does, however, fit with the screenplay of the movie.

I find the music in SP quite memorable and far from bland. There are songs that are fun, spirited, inspirational, romantic and sad. I'd hardly call them repetitious or boring. I can't speak for other Wildhorn scores, but IMHO, SP is quite moving.

And what's wrong with tunes from a Broadway show becoming popular? During the Golden Age of Broadway, many songs that topped the music charts were from Broadway shows. You don't think those composers were thinking "hit" when penning key numbers?

And I'd like to know who established the "rules" of what kind of music defines a Broadway musical. Isn't theater an evolutionary art form - like life? If the score works, does it matter that it's "pop" or "rock" or "folk" or "period?" I like all kinds of musical theater. I was very moved by RENT and equally touched by BIG RIVER. I adore the songs in RAGTIME but also love MY FAIR LADY.

Sorry to go on so. I just wonder why we can't have it all.

lc

[Loge]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:30pm

Well said lovesclassics. I agree with everything you said. SP, to me, is very enjoyable. I also wish more songs from Broadway found their way to the radio, because I would think it would help draw more people to the theater.

Re: Andreas and Eder - they sound very similar to me based on songs like "When I Look At You." I actually think Andreas has a more beautiful voice.

[jmnpublications]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:43pm

Thank you, Loge. And don't you wish there were still variety shows like Ed Sullivan and Carol Burnett that showcased Broadway musical numbers? Our Broadway stars today are unknown outside of the theater world, but everyone - even if they had never set foot in a Broadway theater - knew Julie Andrews et al because of television.

Thank goodness for PBS, which does the occasional Great Performance like KISS ME, KATE or has Broadway stars appear in concert at Lincoln Center or with the Boston Pops. Most people don't know what they are missing.

BTW, question for DickonDefysGravity - is Linda Eder's version of "I'll Forget You" recorded somewhere? Thanks.

lc

[PB ENT.]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 10:50pm

Loge~ you might hear simialarites, but Andreas has a very pronounced vibrato in most of her work, where Eder has almost no vibrato at all. I've been to concerts of both ladies. Each have very unique and lovely styles, in my opinion.

Sorry, I didn't intend to make your observation invalid... I just get my knickers a little twisted when threads go from "why didn't a show do well?" to " that's cause he sucks" type of mentality.
I'd really like to see some of these tomatoes tossers come to NY and try their hand at composing, and creating! LOL!

Updated On: 12/6/04 at 10:50 PM

[Peter]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 11:05pm

Say what you want about Eder's acting talent, which some believe hasn't been proven yet on a broadway stage, and of course theres no singer alive that everyone likes, but she has one of the most beautiful voices I've ever heard. She also has the widest range of any singer I know and is able to sing pop,theatre, opera, and country equally well. What I particularly like about her is she could raise the roof off the theatre, and do it while actually "belting", not screaming, and the next song could be this most beautiful, quiet song that highlights her soprano side.

For those of you Ederites like me, shes going to be at the Palace on December 17 and 18th. Rumour has it that it addition to her Christmas songs, she is premiering several other songs, including Gershwin's "The Man I Love", "What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life", "Just in Time", "The Best is Yet to Come", "If I Could" and a couple of brand new songs written for her, but NOT BY FRANK...I believe tickets are almost gone though..

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 11:14pm

and Loge...
even if POTO was original, Into the Woods would have won best score anyway!

[bronxboundexpress]

Posted: 12/6/04 at 11:45pm

Andreas and Errico would get along. They have those funny goat vibrattos.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 12:19am

I just wanted to quickly point out that CHESS was a major flop that only ran for 68 performances, while DREAMGIRLS ran for four years, won six Tonys, two Grammys (including one for best R&B female performance for Jennifer Holliday) and "And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going" stayed at #1 the R&B charts for 4 weeks and hit #24 on the pop charts -- one of the only non-cover singles taken directly from a Broadway original cast album in three decades to top any of the Billboard charts. That pop music can be viable within the musical theatre form goes without sayng. Beyond DREAMGIRLS, HAIR, GODSPELL, TOMMY, HEDWIG, BRING IN DA NOISE, RENT et al have demonstrated that popular musical forms can be used to advance plot and/or enrich character and become the basis for first rate and successful musical shows.

Wildhorn has some very wealthy European investors who are willing to mount his shows here (to get the "cache" of having played Broadway) despite the fact that every one of his shows have lost millions (over $20 million altogether by some estimates) and been panned by the US critics. I don't think that any other composer in the history of Broadway has been so rejected artistically and ignored popularly and yet still gets produced (apparently the European profits are considerable, but we'll see how many more flops Wildhorn will have subsidized in this country -- his main Dutch investor is pulling the plug on Dracula after only a few months losing the entire investment, which also happened to Civil War; we'll see whether the moneymen will be lining up to invest in Frankenstein and Wildhorn's future efforts).

In his shows, Wildhorn (and his collaborators) have yet to demonstrate a consistent ability to use pop music within a narrative, story-telling context. Wildhorn writes good pop tunes that are rather generic in nature and frankly work better outside of the shows they are ostensibly written for (and for some make for entertaining CDs to listen to). Until he and his book writers and lyricists learn to FULLY INTEGRATE his music with a dramatic context, using songs to flesh out and illuminate the characters, to heighten the conflict and tension within plot and to advance the story being told, I'm afraid his shows will continue to be rejected by both both critics and audiences, at least in this country.

Updated On: 12/7/04 at 12:19 AM

[spiderdj82]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 12:21am

I agree with you Margo when you said that his songs work best outside of the show. I LOVE my JEKYLL AND HYDE Complete cd with Warlow (Vocal god ) but when I saw the show, it didn't have as big of an effect on me as the cd itself did. Also, I think CIVIL WAR is absolutely gorgeous and breathtaking, yet a lot of people say that the show was horrible.

[Peter]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 1:22am

I do agree with you Margo about Wildhorn, even though I still think he takes a lot of abuse for bad lyrics, which he doesnt write. He has had plenty of opportunity to prove himself though.

I also saw Chess on broadway and do realize it was quite the flop both commercially and critically. I can clearly recall critics bashing both the music and the show. But I've also noticed a lot of people from that era who consistantly bash the current pop composers and their big ballads, but love the music to Chess, which really isn't all that different. Dreamgirls did win awards, but as I recall, it received mixed reviews from the major critics.

It seems to me that critics are more open-minded with regard to rock musicals, than pop. There are a few exceptions here I suppose..Billy Joel..is one perhaps, but Elton John's music is regularly bashed too. Updated On: 12/7/04 at 01:22 AM

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 1:35am

Dreamgirls notices were indeed mixed (though some of those same critics hailed the show as a masterpiece at the time of the 2001 concert). Thankfully, Frank Rich of the Times gave it one of the greatest raves of his career, calling it a landmark and masterpiece and comparing it to Gypsy. His championing of it really helped -- then again the Times review is the only one the really matters anyway.

Edited to add: Too bad Bennett didn't live long enough/stay healthy long enough to fully work his magic on CHESS -- I would bet that he'd have found a way to make the show a success.

Updated On: 12/7/04 at 01:35 AM

[Unknown User]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 3:43am

Until he and his book writers and lyricists learn to FULLY INTEGRATE his music with a dramatic context, using songs to flesh out and illuminate the characters, to heighten the conflict and tension within plot and to advance the story being told, I'm afraid his shows will continue to be rejected by both both critics and audiences, at least in this country.

Very well put, Margo. Honestly, his music isn't the problem. Put it with a good collaboration in with a good lyricist and good bookwriter, and his music would fare just fine... lots of shows have totally unmemorable music and yet are entertaining, captivating, etc (I won't name shows because I'm sure any show I name will have their disagree-ers).
I can't say much for the first two versions of SP, but having seen SP3 (which, from what I understand, is SP2 with a smaller cast) I found it was in fact a successful collaboration. The book was good, the songs integrated with the plot so that they moved with the storyline (Dracula unfortunately doesn't do this quite as well), and overall it was a fun night of theatre. And quite *funny* at parts as well; a bit of tweaking and they might have been able to market it as a comedy. I think if SP2 or 3 had opened as the original version, it would have faired well.

There's also somethng to say about workshopping. Jekyll and Hyde and Scarlet Pimpernel's "current" (i.e. touring) versions are different than the ones that originally opened on Broadway, with slight improvements. I constantly feel like the Wildhorn musicals just aren't fully workshopped before Broadway, with key structural musical theatre problems. I don't know who's to blame for this... I don't buy it being just Wildhorn's problem.

[DAME]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 3:52am

HUSSYS. All of them.

[paradox_error]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 6:17am

Dame...you put it so beautifully...

My opinion is the same as Dame's!

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 10:43am

"I'm not saying he's Sondheim, but who is? I mean really, who today is as good as Sondheim? No one! Sondheim is absolutely brilliant, and shows like Sweeney Todd and Into the Woods illustrate that."

Why does EVERYONE have to be compared to Sondheim? No one is as good as Sondheim because they don't have to be. There is only one Sondheim and there will always only be one Sondheim. He's so often used as a gauge for measing musicals, but he is the anomoly, not the norm, so let's just move past it. To compare every musical theatre composer to him is pointless and places expectations way too high on every single Broadway composer in existence from now to eternity.

"TLK was brilliant visually, but it's score was far too weak to win Best Musical over an original and epic creation like Ragtime."

Which is why Ragtime won Best Score. Ragtime won Best Book because The Lion King didn't have an original book, but Ragtime's book had major flaws as did its staging, which is why it failed to win Best Musical. I do agree with you about Aida with one exception: Sherie was the only good thing I saw in the show. Heather sang well, but her acting was quite weak and she mumbled most of her dialogue. I couldn't understand a word she said. Not that any of this ahas anything to do with Pimpernel.

"How is his pop music different from Lloyd Webbers or Stephen Schwartz's or Shonbergs?"

Because he is a different composer with a different sound and different style of writing.

Margo - Wasn't One Night in Bangkok on the charts? I remember hearing the Murray Head version on the radio a few years before the Broadway production. I do agree with you about Michael Bennet. I think he could've made Chess a major hit. I still think it has potential as well as Kristina Fran Duvemala.

Personally, I'll take any Wildhorn song over anything in Brooklyn. I heard that score and......YIKES!

[misterchoi]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 10:52am

Wildhorn's shows are incredily uninteresting, and perhaps the reason Pimpernel wasn't a success is because it is an awful show.

Wildhorn is not incredibly talented, none of his music is in any way original or thrilling, and basically, who cares.

Don't mention Sondheim on a Wildhorn post. Even Stephen Schwartz and Lloyd Webber. All three have created their own versions of musical theatre, while Wildhorn's pieces are just much too cinematic.

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 11:00am

"One Night in Bangkok" peaked at #3 back in 1985, which is great, of course, but I was simply making the point that Holliday went to #1 (on the R&B charts at least)and stayed there for a month, which is pretty much unheard of for an original, unremixed version of a song taken directly from a Broadway cast album in the last 30+ years.

[redhotinnyc2]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 11:04am

mister choi - I couldn't agree more.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 11:14am

"Don't mention Sondheim on a Wildhorn post."

STEPHEN WILDHORN FRANK SONDHEIM STEPHEN WILDHORN FRANK SONDHEIM

Pimpernel was fun! It had some beautiful songs. Stop being such a snob. Jekyll and Hyde had a longer run on Broadway than any Sondheim show. Hell, Pimpernel ran longer than many Sondheim shows. I love Sondheim, but once again, why compare ANYONE to Sondheim? What is the point? Just because you don't like Wildhorn doesn't mean he is not talented.

Margo - I knew what you meant about Dreamgirls. I was just curious about Bangkok. Was that the last Broadway showtune to hit the charts or did something from J&H or Rent make it?

[MargoChanning]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 11:32am

Good question. My Billboard books are a few years old, so I'll have to check some more recent sources, but I'm pretty certain that nothing from Rent cracked the top 40 (I seem to recall that "Seasons of Love" very briefly hit the top 100, peaking at 90-something). I think the same is true with Wildhorn's stuff, but I'll double check when I get a chance.

[ken8631]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 12:21pm

It was great when it opened with Douglass Sills and Terrence Mann. When Rex Smith took over Terry's role, things went downhill.

[broadway86]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 12:28pm

My favorite song from this show is "When I Look at You". It's a gorgeous ballad, with a haunting melody and lyrics that actually hold meaning.

[Mister Matt]

Posted: 12/7/04 at 1:01pm

When I Look at You is also my favorite song from the show. Beautiful melody, solid lyrics, and fit perfectly for the character and the scene. I was never a fan of Christine Andreas until I saw her live. She was dynamite in the show. A wonderful actress, powerhouse singer, and a very sweet person as well.