Unjustified Tony Wins and Losses- Page 5

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 11:48am

Well, to go a little back in Tony history, I think West Side Story totally deserved the Tony for best musical over the Music Man. There are a couple other I historically question(The Will Rogers Follies won in a category with Miss Saigon, Secret Garden, and Once On This Island?, Contact over Aida) but I never saw and honestly don't know that much about these shows so I suppose I can't truly question them.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 12:46pm

Here's my take on everything...

-This year's Tonys were a complete toss-up for Leading Actress. Excluding Chenoweth (great performance, but not the size, or the weight of any of the others), these three women are on completely opposite sides of the spectrum and it is so hard to compare them. I didn't see all three, so I can't really compare. I did see Idina, and I must say that I wasn't surprised when she won.

-Best Musical will usually go to the show with the most producers and/or money behind it, and it *usually* doesn't matter if the smaller show wins best book and lyrics. Phantom won over Into the Woods, Lion King won over Ragtime, Millie won over Urinetown, etc. Avenue Q is the exception to the rule. I think looking at Q and Wicked as shows, Avenue Q is the superior show for it's consistency, strong book, music and lyrics, and entertainment factor. It is a well-crafted show. Wicked is flawed in many more ways.

-Bernadette Peters SHOULD have won over Marissa Jaret Winokur. I saw Marissa originally. Then I saw Shoshana Bean play the part, and I thought she was better than Marissa. Then I saw Bernadette as Rose two days later and thought she blew everyone else out of the water. Tracy is just not a part that I consider Tony-worthy.

-Once on this Island was wrongly shut-out of the Tonys in 1990. I believe that it, as a show, is superior to any of the other three that year, and they were all fantastic.

-I didn't see Antonio or Brian, but I wasn't surprised that Harvey won.

-I think West Side deserved the Tony over Music Man, or at least a tie.

-Barbra Streisand deserved a Tony for Funny Girl, which she later got as a special award, but that would be another tie that I would approve of, with Carol Channing.

-Dreamgirls deserved a tie for best score with Nine.

-Kerry Butler deserved a nomination.

-Ann Harada, Douglas Sills, Jeff Calhoun all should have received nominations last year.

-Although not the strongest show, AIDA should have been nominated over Contact, which had no original score or book or any kind of live singing, therefore not a musical. It should have been a Special Theatrical Event, if anything.

-Bernadette Peters should have been nominated (and won) for Into the Woods, even though I love me some Joanna Gleason.

[Albin]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 12:59pm

"-Although not the strongest show, AIDA should have been nominated over Contact, which had no original score or book or any kind of live singing, therefore not a musical. It should have been a Special Theatrical Event, if anything."

There was no "Special Theatrical Event" category in the year "Contact" won best musical. It was started the following year. Updated On: 12/30/04 at 12:59 PM

[FOAnatic]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 1:32pm

LOL...I thought I was the only one. Every time I talk to people about Bernadette being robbed of the TONY, they all start saying "ewww Marissa was so much better." But, then again, I was talking to a younger audience who couldn't appreciate Peters' performance. I'm so glad so many people agree with me about her. That was truly an unjust robbery.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 2:38pm

Oh yeah, I never mentioned how I think AVenue Q in no way deserved to win. Caroline, or Change did.

And though I didn't see either the original production of West Side Story or The Music Man, I could not imagine how the Music Man could win over an amazign piece of theatre such as West Side Story.

[Justice]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 2:41pm

Contact
Moving Out
Thoroughly Modern Millie
Judi Dench in Shakespeare in...Oh, that was the Oscars, sorry
CATS!
All UNJUSTIFIED!

[Justice]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 2:43pm

Forgot some...

Will Rogers Follies
Titanic
Billy Joel??????????

Updated On: 12/30/04 at 02:43 PM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 2:50pm

Justice: Perhaps people would understand or take your point a tad better if you had some explanation, not just random incoherent half sentences and show titles. And with Billy Joel (I think you're saying he shouldn't have won for best orchestrations,) I thought MOVIN' OUT was terrible, as I think you do. However, the orchestrations for that show were undeniably remarkable. They turned what was usually just a simple piano song into a rock band - the sound was totally revamped and brand new and fresh. They completely deserved the tony for best orchestrations.

And I do believe that CONTACT did deserve the Tony for best musical, after seeing all the others that year - it was far superior.

Bjivie: Contact did have a book. Did you even see this show?

[Justice]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 2:59pm

Okay let me justify my answers to unjustifiabilities...

CONTACT did not deserve the Tony. It was all pre-recorded music, and it was a dance recital. It is not what musical theatre is. There was no true acting or singing involved (and Boyd Gaines' number does not count).

Moving Out: Billy Joel won an award for music that was orchestrated twenty years ago. It's like Shelby Lynn winning the Grammy for best new artist, when it fact she had many more country albums out before the Grammy's. Besides, BJ's music was POP music - not Broadway (I personally believe that originality should be considered when handing out the awards)

Thoroughly Modern Millie: Over Urinetown??? Puh-Leeeeze!

Cats????? (enough Said)

Will Rogers Follies: There were much better musicals that year. I'm not going to say Secret Garden was anything I liked, but come on, WRF over Miss Saigon? The length of the run told you which show was actually better.

Titanic...It was the year that was overdone. It had won oscar for Movie...Did it really need to win best show, too??? Besides, the Life was a much more original and powerful show.

There..I hope I have justified to your satisfaction.

Updated On: 12/30/04 at 02:59 PM

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:04pm

Billy Joel's music was absolutely NOT orchestrated 20 years ago - they did it all just for this production. Listen to his version of MOVIN' OUT, then listen to the track on the OBC - far, far, FAR superior. Do you even know what orchestrations are? It sounds like you don't - the MOVIN OUT orchestrations were brand new and remarkable.

It doesn't sound like you even saw CONTACT. Boyd Gaines did not perform a song in the show at all - he has a track on the CD, but in they show they use a pre-recorded version of someone else singing it. So did you really see this show? And you're not one to decide what is and what is not a musical - that's the Tony Committe's job, and I agree - it is a musical. I ask again - did you see CONTACT? If you did, you would know that some of what you say is false, and the rest just doesn't make sense.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:13pm

While we're on it, what exactly are orchestrations? Updated On: 12/30/04 at 03:13 PM

[Justice]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:18pm

I know what orchestrations are..I am very well educated in the musical theatre, thank you very much. All I am saying is that there is not much of a noticable difference between his original songs (or should I say CONCERTS) than the show.

And I would NEVER pay money to see Contact. BUT, I have seen bits on tv (enough to know that it sucks), and have had several people I know tell me everything I need to know about it. It is NOT musical theatre. Just as Swan Lake is NOT musical theatre. Because if it were, than we would be calling every single ballet written (and let's not forget Carmina Burana, which is a cantatta with DANCING) musical theatre - which it is NOT.

[BSoBW2]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:19pm

simply, what the orchestra plays....

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:21pm

No kidding, BSoBW2....but does that refer to the arrangement? (Meaning...what instrument plays what part of the score?) Or does it actually involve elaborating the score or something of that nature?

[Barihunk]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:21pm

I'm a bit surprised at the response to WRF here. As someone who actually saw all four nominees that year, there was no surprise that WRF won and it was completely justified. It was a tremendously enjoyable night in the theatre - one that will most likely never be reproduced. Secret Garden was largely regarded as being dark and a bit of a bore, Miss Saigon - aside from Lea Salonga and Jonathan Pryce - was largely dismissed as another London popera spectacle, Once on this Island was a sentimental favorite of everyone but could not compare to WRF's extravagance. Tommy Tune was the undisputed creative force at the time having just come off the success of Grand Hotel the year before. Cy Coleman and Betty Comden and Adolph Green and Peter Stone were all Broadway vets. Add the gorgeous Willa Kim costumes, scenery by Tony Walton and lighting by Jules Fisher and four terrific turns by Keith Carradine, Dee Hoty, Cady Huffman and Dick Latessa and you have a pedigree few shows today could equal and nothing else that season did. There was clearly no other winner than WRF that year.

[Elphaba3]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:26pm

I'm still pissed that Bernadette didn't win for Gypsy. And that Avenue Q won almost everything that Wicked should have won.

[bjivie2]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 3:59pm

If anyone can actually consider Contact a musical, I don't know where you're from. I feel the same way about Movin' Out, which is a ballet, essentially, not a musical. But I'm more leniant because it has a live band, and a featured singer. And we all know that Theatrical Event was created BECAUSE of Contact. I agree it deserved something, but not Best Musical.

[uncageg]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 4:19pm

Couldn't read this entire thread but I think COC should have won the Tony. If not, it should have gone to Wicked. Tonya or Krisin should have gotten best actress in my opinion. Idina was good but I just enjoyed Kristin more. And as for Tonya and Idina's performances at the Tony's. Well Idina was just off! I winced!! From what I read the day after, Tonya was upset over her performance. She was under the weather and had asked not to sing "Lot's Wife" but was talked into doing it by Wolfe and either Tsori or Kushner. She was very much aware of how bad she sounded.

[munkustrap178]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 4:34pm

Orchestrations aren't just simply what the orchestra plays - it is everything that Broadwaygirl107 said.

Justice: Are you actually saying that Billy Joel's original versions are not noticably different from the sound of MOVIN' OUT? There's no point arguing here, since this one isn't a matter of opinion, but a fact. Anyone with ears can hear that MOVIN OUT was a remarkable achievement, musically.

And I knew you didn't see CONTACT. You can't judge a show based on a few (terribly filmed) TV clips of the final Broadway performance, and people who hated the show telling you how awful it was. You can only judge something after you have seen it in it's entirety - that's just common sense. If I'm not mistaken, CONTACT opened to pretty postitive reviews straight across the board. No, reviewers aren't everything and their opinions hardly denote which shows have any real merit. As far as I'm concerned, CONTACT was a brilliant piece or art. And no, it did not suck. You would have the right to say it sucked had you seen the show. You did not, so therefore you have no opinion on it. This is coming off as really nasty but trust me, I don't mean it in a mean or nasty way. My biggest pet peeve with theatre is when people pass judgement on a show before they see it. It's cool to have some preconceived notions in your head about it, but to bash something openly that you haven't seen just makes you look stupid, and doesn't make much sense.

bjivie2: Your point is well taken. I'm not one of those diehard "CONTACT IS A MUSICAL" people - it could have gone either way. I thought it was a really remarkable piece of theatre, or art, or dance, or whatever people agree that it is. All three segments in CONTACT were beyond enjoyable, but part 3, CONTACT, was just amazing. It was beautifully touching. For anyone that actually saw it live, I am confident that they would agree with me. I found it truly inspiring, touching, brilliant, and enjoyable. I still can't hear "Simply Irresistable" without smiling.

[BroadwayGirl107]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 4:36pm

OK, thanks, munkustrap...I wasn't completely sure.

And yes, you can absolutely hear a difference from Billy Joel's original recordings to Movin' Out.

[SallyBrown]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 4:37pm

I like Billy Joel's original songs a little more than Movin Out
and I just don't like Movin Out cuz I'm not a huge fan of the whole one-man show thing

[Plum]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 5:37pm

Loppy, I'm going to choose to believe you're referring to the royal "we" when talking about how "we" felt nothing in response to Hugh Jackman's performance. Because while The Boy From Oz was blatantly manipulative in Act II, the manipulation worked. Or maybe other people at the Imperial simultaneously caught a cold when I went to the show. It was a cold day, after all.

And as for the accusation of "not acting"- I suppose in comparison to Tartaglia, Jackman looked like he wasn't acting at all. He only used one voice and no puppets. Very naturalistic. I don't presume to know anything about Jackman the person, but in interviews he's not the same as he was onstage. Charm isn't his exclusive personality characteristic.

And just to contribute my entirely unneeded voice to a few other ongoing debates- I'll take Bernadette Peters over Winokur; Ann Harada and Veanne Cox both needed Supporting Actress nominations and both should have won over Anika Noni Rose; Caroline, or Change was my favorite musical of last season but I feel Avenue Q's win was justified; and Tonya Pinkins was robbed.

[FOAnatic]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 5:45pm

Munkustrap I completely agree with you. I rather enjoyed Contact, although it's not in my top five favorites, it was a great night in the theatre. Some may consider it a recital, but it still is a brilliant piece of art and you cannot judge it by viewing short video clips of it. It was a great show and there was only one category it fit in. There was no "Special Theatrical Event" award that year and they couldn't create an award for it, so it was judged as a musical and won the award. The Tony voters aren't stupid...I'm sure they weren't confused...they gave the award to what they thought was the best show. Part 3: CONTACT was good but I enjoyed Part 2: Did You Move? as well.

And, to reiterate...Bernadette was robbed. I know, I said it already...but it bears repeating. And, I'll be attacked for this, but I wasn't surprised that Avenue Q won...I saw WICKED and though it was a wonderful show, Avenue Q was much more original and didn't rely on big stars and huge sets to draw a crowd...it was an original idea and it was funny as hell. The music is great and the cast was tight. It's a great show and deserved it's awards.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 5:46pm

Justice, I think you had a momentary lapse of conciousness. Your post reads Judi Dench under a thread about unjustified. Since Ms. Dench is one of the greatest living actresses, I know that you didn't mean to lump her in with other unjustified wins. What you meant to say for Shakespeare in Love is that Gwyneth Paltrow was an unjustified win.

[parker russel]

Posted: 12/30/04 at 6:24pm

Just my two sents on this issue:

Marla Schaffel was ROBBED. Nuff said.

Tonya Pinkins gave won of the most simple and complex performances I have ever seen...odd side note, all of my friends who grew up in the upper class weren't so fond of it, and all my friends who grew up with some sort of struggle loved it...just a side note. But, Tonya was robbed. She gave a thrilling performance and Lot's Wife is one of the most beautiful numbers ever written/performed. She ripped her guts out nightly and wore her heart on her sleeve. She was brilliant. In my opinion Idina won because she was attached to a fork lift and belted a high "F". I found her performance one dimensional and lacking the charisma that it needed. I kept wanting Patti LuPone to come out and show her how to do it. I also felt many times like she went for the note rather than the emotion..."And if I'm flying solo"...she riffed on so-lo-o-o...why? I was baffled when she won. Loved her in Rent, but felt she was miscast and misdirected.

Once on this Island...one of the most beautiful musicals ever. WRF won for specticle, but Island had heart.

Marla Schaffel...ROBBED.

In response to a post about Harvey not deserving the Tony. Mitchell...AWESOME voice, but no vulnerability. I saw his understudy, who I liked so much more. he had the underdog thing going on which really really worked. Banderas...beautiful job. But, Harvey...come on. The man took a role that could easily have been turned into one big schtick and made it a truly vulnerable, touching, and layered character. I kept forgetting he was a man, and my heart was so happy when he burst out of that can and declaired "I made this myself". After seeing other actors play the part you realize what Harvey made of that role. There was no competition...he definitly deserved that award.

Finally, Marissa. LOVE HER. Bernadette on the Tony's was one of the best things I had ever seen. But up to that point her performances were inconsistant and lacking the "oomph" that she needed. She got it, and by the end of the run was un-f*cking believable, but she was missing it up to then. At that time Marissa deserved it. She had the heart and was giving it her all. Also, does any one else think she would be a great Audrey in Little Shop?

Marla Schaffel was totally ROBBED.

Thats all...