Unpopular opinions you hold- Page 46
Unpopular opinions you hold
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
Unpopular Opinions#1125
Posted: 5/14/26 at 11:11am
Kad said: "Can one fairly describe themselves as not being a fan if they don't really know what ballroom is?"
I believe you've made an incorrect assumption regarding what I do/didn't previously know about ballroom. This conversation has expounded on my previous information, not introduced the subject from scratch.
So, "yes"... I still am very comfortable saying that I'm not a fan. I'm also very confident in saying that no one needs me to be.
But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate or enjoy absorbing more information about it.
Unpopular Opinions#1126
Posted: 5/14/26 at 11:29am
John Adams said: "
P.S.: Prior to our conversation, my introductory "history lesson" re: Ballroom culture was the documentary, "Paris is Burning" which featured drag, and drag performers more heavily than (apparently) Jellicle Ball does. E.g., PiB's Wikipedia page mentions the judging criteria to include: "Contestants are judged on criteria including their dance talent, the aesthetic beauty of their clothing, and the "realness" of their drag - i.e., their ability to pass as a member of the stereotype, gender, or sex they are portraying."
Additionally, the Wikipedia page on "Ball culture" cites: "The Ballroom scene (also known as the Ballroom community, Ballroom culture, or just Ballroom) is an African-American and Latin underground LGBTQ+ subculture. The scene traces its origins to the drag balls of the mid-19th century United States, such as those hosted by William Dorsey Swann, a formerly enslaved Black man in Washington D.C.. By the early 20th century, integrated drag balls were popular in cities such as New York, Chicago, New Orleans, Baltimore, and Philadelphia."
"
The vast majority of the people that are the stars of Paris is Burning are Transwomen, not Drag Queens. Drag as it's used in a ball, is not particularly how you would use it to refer to Drag Queens. Anything you wear or portray is your Drag.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
Unpopular Opinions#1127
Posted: 5/14/26 at 11:45am
TheatreFan4 said: "Drag as it's used in a ball, is not particularly how you would use it to refer to Drag Queens. Anything you wear or portray is your Drag."
...and again - many thanks! This conversation has been a ball! (see what I did there?) 
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
Unpopular Opinions#1128
Posted: 5/23/26 at 1:56am
TheatreFan4 said: "The vast majority of the people that are the stars of Paris is Burning are Transwomen, not Drag Queens. Drag as it's used in a ball, is not particularly how you would use it to refer to Drag Queens. Anything you wearor portray is your Drag."
I've been thinking about this quite a bit and I think the differences in our thinking is due to a generation gap.
"The people that are the stars of Paris is Burning are Transwomen, not Drag Queens." - That is a very contemporary (and maybe more accurate) way of thinking, but doesn't reflect the thinking of the time that "Paris is Burning" was filmed (note that it was released a couple of years after it was filmed - filmed in the late 80s, but released early 90). At that time, "drag queen" was the more popularly employed identification rather than, "Transwoman". You can see examples of that in the quotes I posted earlier (e.g. post 1121). The word "drag" is repeatedly used. "Transwoman"? ...doesn't show up nearly as often as it would today. Times have changed, and so has the language.
"Anything you wear or portray is your Drag" is likewise the more modern, but also more toothless definition of "drag". In the 80's one of the highest compliments you could give was to describe a drag queen as being, "fierce". People were proud to be drag queens. They were special and unique - as in the lyric "I am my own special creation".
If literally "anything" you wear or portray is your drag now, then everybody is always in drag. Nothing at all special about that. I would be hard pressed to use the word, "fierce" regarding just anything.
The revised, current ways we speak, and specifically the refined manners we use to better correctly address people in a way they want to be seen and regarded is great. Still, if there are no (or few) drag queens attending the Jellicle Ball, than (IMO) some important people (cats) are missing.
PS: I'm also leaning back to my original thought (although revised in detail): If there are no, or few who identify as drag queens at the Jellicle Ball, then the Ball could be (not is, or must be) seen as an example of cultural appropriation.
Unpopular Opinions#1129
Posted: 5/23/26 at 3:57am
While I am no expert on Ball culture, I think you're missing the forest for the trees. You're trying to impose a strict, current definition of "drag" upon a scene that didn't have such strict definitions as we do now. Ball culture was compromised of trans women, and others outside the gender norm, joyously celebrating themselves, as themselves -- labels are kinda erroneous. And yes, within that, they called what they were wearing as their *drag* -- but not within the strict sense of being a drag queen. But in the time of "Paris Is Burning" (and to an extent, still today) it's easier to relate more foreign concepts of gender identity as being "drag", as opposed to the way the more vast landscape of gender expression those outside the mainstream would understand. Of course, as humans, we love heuristics, but sometimes those fail to capture the entirety of expression and experience -- and that's something Ball culture fully embraces. I guess I fail to see your hangup.
If any cultural appropriation has happened with this production, it's felines being represented as human.
Unpopular Opinions#1131
Posted: 5/23/26 at 10:17am
John, I really respect your opinions and insights but I have to admit I’m really confounded by your take on this. While Paris is Burning is the major cultural touchstone of ball culture, it’s also from over three decades ago (and TheatreFan4 is correct: trans women make up most of the subjects of the documentary and are rather explicitly depicted as trans or female-identifying even within the confines of the language and understanding of the time it was filmed. There’s also considerable focus on ballroom performers who are cisgender men whose “drag” and “realness” consists of convincingly performing regular masculine roles. There are essentially few, if any, performative drag queens in the vein of RuPaul, Lady Bunny, et al in the documentary).
But putting Paris is Burning aside, Jellicle Ball isn’t a period piece- it’s set in today’s ballroom. And it’s been created with considerable input and with the participation of several generations of ballroom performers. So who exactly is appropriating here? This isn’t Madonna grabbing dance moves and jargon from a community she doesn’t belong to.
Broadway Legend Joined: 10/13/03
Unpopular Opinions#1132
Posted: 5/23/26 at 11:19am
I'll just add this to the Jellicle discussion, since two friends attended this week, one on my recommendation: many people presume this to be some sort of improvisational riff on Cats, a loosely constructed entertainment that throws out the original conceit - a community gathering and transcendent resurrection - and more or less exploits the original score. Full disclosure here: I was not personally prepared for the original orchestrations (or a closer facsimile thereof, obviously) to blast through the house during the overture. Nor did I expect all of the original tempi and melodic lines to be so rigorously followed. This is still Cats, and the staging is among the most disciplined pieces of musical theater currently on B'way, not some wild and funky amalgam of styles and tropes. The choreography is as specific and focused as the original (in a couple of cases, far more inventive and eye-catching).
The show is somehow the synergy of nostalgia and innovation: anyone who halfway enjoyed the original can attend this production and have their taste validated. And when the show reaches for the same emotional depths, it is transcendent: I won't spoil it, but the first act "Memory" is one of the most wrenching takes on the song I've ever witnessed, and I saw Paige and Buckley. What this frame does in literally humanizing the piece is to move the show away from any whiff of preciousness. It takes the score, respects its elegance and melodic range, and then allows this subculture to have a crack what what it might mean, in both individual moments and collectively. I still don't know exactly how it works, but do believe the reverence for the source plays a decisive role.
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
Unpopular Opinions#1133
Posted: 5/23/26 at 12:13pm
Kad said: "While Paris is Burning is the major cultural touchstone of ball culture, it’s also from over three decades ago (and TheatreFan4 is correct: trans women make up most of the subjects of the documentary and are rather explicitly depicted as trans or female-identifying even within the confines of the language and understanding of the time it was filmed."
Yes, it's over three decades ago, and I thought I was being careful to accentuate my view that "times have progressed (changed)", but It's the bolded phrase where I think differently.
I agree that "TheatreFan4 is correct: trans women make up most of the subjects of the documentary", but I still hold to my recollection of that era regarding what language was commonly in practice, at that time.
As I recall, "trans women" were (technically) those who had undergone surgery (like Christine Jorgensen), whereas "drag queens" relied more on costuming and make-up to display their femininity.
Additionally, in the 80s, people were not as conscious of how to respectfully, and accurately refer to, and acknowledge our population as we are today. As an exemplary "sign of the times", I think about the Gay flag and how many colors have been added since the 80s - not to mention all the additional alphabet letters that now represent our acronym (which at this point, I'm never 100% certain I'm always being completely inclusive of).
As I remember (and I'm very open to the possibility that my memory is is perhaps tainted with age), it was more commonplace (and certainly easier) to use inaccurate, or inappropriate "bucket" identifiers like "drag queen" to lump members of the community who looked or behaved similarly into a single "bucket". I pointed to the language used in those cited wiki articles as an example.
"There’s also considerable focus on ballroom performers who are cisgender men whose “drag” and “realness” consists of convincingly performing regular masculine roles. There are essentially few, if any, performative drag queens in the vein of RuPaul, Lady Bunny, et al in the documentary)."
Now, see... You're using the phrase "cisgender men", which few, if anyone would have understood in the 80s. Times have changed and progressed.
TBH, I'm a little unclear if you're saying that the cisgender men are ballroom performers in the film "Paris is Burning", or in CATS (?) If it's the movie, I definitely need to give it a re-watch. It's been decades since I've watched it.
"But putting Paris is Burning aside, Jellicle Ball isn’t a period piece- it’s set in today’s ballroom. And it’s been created with considerable input and with the participation of several generations of ballroom performers. So who exactly is appropriating here?"
Yes, I know and agree. I want to re-emphasize that I wrote: "If there are no, or few who identify as drag queens at the Jellicle Ball, then the Ball could be (not is, or must be) seen as an example of cultural appropriation."
"Cultural appropriation" in that the balls literally originated as "drag balls", and later participants were referred to (incorrectly or not) as "drag queens".
If the performers in "CATS" are utilizing those stylizations, but don't identify similarly as those who created the art form, it could be interpreted as cultural appropriation.
This is the "Unpopular Opinions" thread, so I'm comfortable calling in on that chip.
Unpopular Opinions#1134
Posted: 5/23/26 at 12:17pm
SkidRow82 said: "I think the immersive, in the round, setting actually hindered The Great Comet more than it helped. It's one of my favorite scores and I'd love to see a proscenium staging with traditional sets."
Pittsburgh CLO did a production last year in a proscenium setting that was a little less abstract and more narrative/presentational in style overall. It worked well.
Unpopular Opinions#1135
Posted: 5/23/26 at 12:38pm
John, at this point I genuinely don't know what you're arguing. Do you believe Jellicle Ball is appropriative? Or do you merely believe somebody hypothetically could?
Broadway Legend Joined: 4/1/13
Unpopular Opinions#1136
Posted: 5/23/26 at 4:43pm
Kad said: "John, at this point I genuinely don't know what you're arguing."
I believe you, and I'm OK with that.
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