Why Sondheim lost his voice (Or my thoughts on BOUNCE)

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:09am

ok, I finally listened to Bounce, mostly because I was afraid I would be disappointed.
Unfortunately, the waiting only made it worse.

I've heard all this music before.
Children and Art
All for you
Anyone can Whistle.

I've heard it all, its like he dropped all of his motifs on a table and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle. The music has no meaningful connection to the text, the lyrics are only mildly clever.

I actually analyzed most of the recurring motifs in the piece and they are EXACTLY the same motifs he has used in other works. I really couldn't find one piece that sounded original. The only track I really enjoyed was 'Talent'

I really wanted to like this, I thought it would a diamond that other people weren't getting, but it's not. It's shoddy work, which is said because this is probably his last full work.
At least Irving Berlin's last work was better than this, even though it was panned.

Fen (Who goes around humming 'The Secret Service makes me Nervous' on a daily basis.

[KJisgroovy]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:22am

That doesn't really seem to explain WHY he "lost his voice."
Chicken Little, I don't think it is the end of the world. Artists are entittled to have one or two "bad" works in their portfolio.

kmc

[folkyboy]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:23am

maybe it's just me, but i thought Bounce was more like Merrily We Roll Along than any of them. and i enjoyed both Merrily AND Bounce a lot.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:26am

Im a HUGE merrily fan, and while the score if reminiscent of Merrily, it pales in comparison.

I think the why is pretty self-explanatory. Sondheim doesn't have anything left, and he is a product of another time. I doubt he will have anything new to say anymore.

Not to denigrate his canon of work.

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:46am

I saw BOUNCE in Chicago in the summer of 2003. The score was not the problem. John Weidman's book simply failed to provide a compelling reason for us to care about these characters and their story.

There is also a glaring error when the guys head to the Yukon for the gold rush claiming it is in Alaska. No! The Yukon Territory is in CANADA. It is next to Alaska, but not in Alaska.

Sondheim's score (and Hal Prince's staging of some of the sequences) provided the only enjoyment. "Addison's Trip Around the World" was inventively staged, as was the entire "New York Sequence." Almost all of Act Two worked beautifully starting with "Talent" through Boca Raton." The first act was too long and meandering but the second half was tight and focussed.

Though Richard Kind and Howard McGillin were fine, the lead roles really require two really dynamite leads. Gavin Creel was great as Hollis and Michele Pawk just about stole the show.

After listening to the score many times since the CD was released, and enjoying it more and more, I must admit I do not notice the repetition of themes that you seem to notice. In context it mostly works and is certainly better than the sloppy writing that characterizes most recent Broadway scores.

When it didn't work in Chicago and Washington, it would have been better to set it aside for a while and work on something new. It seems a crime that the last new Sondheim score to be heard on Broadway was PASSION...13 years ago!

[folkyboy]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 11:46am

the man has written some of the best musicals of all time. he doesn't HAVE to write anything ever again and he still will have that title

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 12:00pm

Just because he's written some great musicals doesn't mean that no one can say that this is just a rehash of some old tunes and he should know better.

We should expect MORE from great composers, not less.
That doesn't make any sense.

But Ive said it before and I'll say it again. He's a much better lyricist

[frontrowcentre2]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 12:13pm

Give it a couple more listens, and I think you will find it grows on you. Some of the best scores take a couple of listens to fully appreciate their subtleties.

I disagree with your premise that Sondheim has “lost his voice.” I am not sure how you can decuide that after just one listen. He writes scores that he feels will best serve the material. The score of BOUNCE serves the material well. It’s the material that is weak.

It’s not his best score. I think SWEENEY TODD wins that award hands down. I don’t find BOUNCE as emotionally affecting as SUNDAY or PASSION, nor as theatrically exciting as ASSASSINS or COMPANY, but it is still head and shoulders above so much else on Broadway these days.

[SeanMartin]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 12:18pm

There's also the issue that he worked on BOUNCE for, what, a decade? And in all that time, I'm sure echoes of earlier work found their way in -- after all, if you listen carefully, you'll find he uses a lot of the same chord progressions at some point in almost every show, and there's a definite penchant for certain rhythms, even in shows as disparate as SUNDAY and NIGHT MUSIC.

I dont think he's lost his voice, but like every creative person, at some point it loses you. I havent heard what he did for LEAR; maybe this represents a new era in his writng.

[RentBoy86]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 1:49pm

Lear?

[Julian2]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 1:56pm

He wrote intrumental music and songs for a recent production of King Lear.

It seems a crime that the last new Sondheim score to be heard on Broadway was PASSION...13 years ago!

Well, he had The Frogs, which also had incredible book problems. Not an entirely new score, but the new numbers are wonderful. Its one of those shows where its easy to fall in love with the CD. I love the score.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 2:08pm

He provided incidental music for the Public's new production of King Lear.

Fenchurch, Sondheim is 75 years old (is he 76 yet?). He's written a lot of great shows, he's written some lousy, lousy stuff. I hope you get to live that long and have a fraction of the kind of career Sondheim has had. He repeats himself all the time. Guess what? All prolific composers do. There are only so many notes.

Even Richard Rodgers puttered out when he got older and he "pissed melody".

I think what is more disappointing is the fact that he wasted the last 13 years of his career on Bounce. Sondheim is only as good as what he is working with (like any artist). Too bad there hadn't been a worthier project to work on for the rest of his life (apparently literally).

I hope he has another score in him but I'm not holding my breath. You gotta remember that Sondheim doesn't really pursue projects himself, other people approach him to do them. He also seems to work with the same people over and over. I doubt he's "lost his voice". Maybe he just feels less urgency.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 2:20pm

I couldn't agree with you more. And every composer has a palette that they use, but growing up with Sondheim before I learned about music has really opened my ears about a lot of things.

I totally hear Sondheim differently now than before when I didn't know anything about Music Theory about 15 years ago. I stopped listening to Sondheim for a long time, in fact I stopped listening to musical theater at all and concentrated solely on opera and classical music.

It was like being dropped in a country where you didnt know the language, but as you pick it up you begin to notice things about your old language, especially if the two are related.

This is what happened to me, when I came back to Musical theater, and especially Sondheim, I saw a hell of a lot of things that impressed me, real craftmanship. But I also noticed a lot of other things too, shoddy work, musical flights of fancy that had no real meaning involved with them, and a lot of it was in Sondheim's working. In his quest to sound different (which he succeeded in doing) he forgot to add meaning to lot of his music, and nowhere is that more evident than in Bounce. I hope to high heaven that we hear one more phenomenal score from him, even if it's a serious piece like Passion, which is incredible.

[GoSmileLaughCryClap]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 2:39pm

Regardless of any weaknesses that exist in Sondheim's scores, they're distinctive in that the musical lines and lyrics almost always coexist seamlessly. It's a rare accomplishment to write in a dramatic and naturalistic way simulutaneously.

Bounce isn't his best score, but it's far from a disgrace. For me, both Bounce and MWRA suffer from the same basic flaw. They're not funny enough to be flat out musical comedies, and not serious enough to be musical dramas. They're stuck in a dramedy realm that I just don't think works for musicals.

I guess that Grey Gardens is an example of a musical dramedy that succeeds, but the intensity of the situation and the indelible characters go a long way in keeping the audience engaged.

I've seen Bounce and MWRA and listened to them both countless times. When you come right down to it there isn't one REAL character in either show. No one that audiences connect to or relate to. FRANKLIN SHEPARD INC. is certainly a great song, in isolation, but it never had a dramtic impact for me. There really isn't a Charlie or Frankin with enough life in them to make any of it seem real. To me.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 2:41pm

That's what makes Sondheim so interesting though. He even admits that he's so terrified of being criticized for sounding like everyone else that he goes out of his way to be different. You can really tell that there is an artistic journey to his body of work.

As far as meaning goes, I'm sorry but I find Sondheim to be one of the most consistently meaningful of Broadway composers. There's so much specificity in the music. Especially considering that Sondheim places harmony so firmly in importance before melody. I'm kind of curious for examples of what you are talking about of superfluousness and shaky writing in his work (aside from, say, Anyone can Whistle, which he calls a music student's score anyway).

I would love to hear another Passion. I'm obsessed with that show. Have you read Minor Details and Major Decisions?

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 2:48pm

Personally, I think Sondheim is too afraid of that. He trades meaning in the music for inventiveness, but I want both.

Sometimes he delivers. Passion is a perfect example of that, as is Sweeney I would say. Even most of Merrily.

Music has a cultural literacy and whether or not we consciously understand the meaning in music, we get it, because we all share a musical literacy, especially as fans of musical theater, even if some of us can't explain it because some of us aren't musicians.

So, what happens in a Sondheim score? He gets so close to divine meaning and a beautiful climax, which he usually delivers, but intersperses it with his non-traditional intervals and harmonic interruptions that I enjoyed for a while, until I started asking "Why" other than just for the sake of being different.

I haven't come up with an answer yet, and no explanation of his has been satsifactory, so I'm disappointed. And the more I hear his patented interruptions of the melody with Sondheimian interruptions without a clear meaning as to why the more frustrated I get. Of course, I continue reading about him and his work, and continue listening, but I feel let down.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 3:08pm

So your problem with him isn't that you find him meaningless--you find him inaccessible. I'm not sure how meeting the expectations of the listener equals meaning. By general concensus the meaning unfolds in the repeated listenings, when you see what he IS doing rather than what you expected him to do. And of course a sharp ear can keep up. You're obviously familiar with Sondheim as well as with his influences--he's hardly the only composer to do this sort of thing.

Yeah he's sometimes deliberately esoteric. But far more often I think his music is extremely satisfying. I mean really, Passion and Sweeney Todd are two of the worst offenders when it comes to the criticism you give.

I've just never thought Sondheim was that weird. There are weird composers. Sondheim is weird for musical theater, and he's not even the weirdest.

I guess I'm grateful for the composers who are willing to explore different ways of expressing themselves. 50 years later they are the ones everyone starts copying. It's interesting that music students tend to either dislike Sondheim for his idiosyncracy or really appreciate him for it. Guess it's a matter of taste.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 3:13pm

I agree,

I think he has written some incredible things. Things that I think the art music world should sit up and take notice of.

And I think he has tackled some pretty heavy subjects, in that sense he has done what only really great artists do, which is dialogue with society.

But lately, I dont see too much of that, especially in his musical writing as opposed to his lyrical writing.

To quote him, "I want more" I guess.

[Roninjoey]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 3:27pm

Definitely. I understand how you feel. There's certainly a longing for that one great musical... something like Remembrance of Things Past or Don Quixote or some such thing (or bringing it back to musical theater, a Porgy and Bess or a Showboat), and you feel like Sondheim was the one to do it. I don't know if the world would allow for that sort of thing anymore though.

I mean, sure, Follies is great, but so much of its greatness relies on familiarity with the genre of musicals. It's a niche musical. Sweeney Todd is great but confused thematically. Sunday in the Park and Passion are both incredible, but they have had little impact on society.

I think that's why the man and his body of work as a whole has come to represent his legacy more than any one show. But the reason why he's had such a varied career is because he never had one show that completely overshadowed everything else he ever did.

[B3TA07]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 3:37pm

fenchurch: "To quote him, "I want more" I guess."


That was actually Bernie Taupin, a lyricist of a very different feather.

[NathanLaneStalker]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 3:38pm

I love the score to Bounce. It's a great show IMHO. I just REALLY liked it. The book had serious problems but i loved the score. Every time I listen to it around my brother (who is a know it all) and they say:

Addison: The Yukon? Where's the Yukon?
Willie: It's in Alaska!

He goes ape-****. Why did they say it was in Alaska?

Also, THE FROGS had many new songs, including some lyric adjustments in the existing songs. I thought the book was fantastic and the cast was great.

[Fenchurch]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 4:06pm

Actually, I was referring to Sondheim's song "More" not Lestat...

How could you think I could possibly confuse the two :)....

[SamIAm]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 4:22pm

The reason Bounce (aka Gold, aka Wise Guys) never came to NY is that it was not ready to do so. Many composers AND playwrights write things that remain in the trunk forever, or at the very most are played in limited runs on a smaller stage.

There has been talk that they might continue to work on this and try to tighten the work. Just as Frogs did not come to NY for 30 years, you can never tell IF this will happen with Bounce or WHEN.

That does not mean Sondheim has lost his touch or lost his voice. There were some really great new songs in The Frogs at Lincoln Center, and Sondheim has said he is working on other projects. I don't think he feels pressured by time at his age and probably will finish these things when he feels he is ready...not on anyone else's schedule. Let's just wait and see before we proclaim him washed up.

[Unknown User]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 4:48pm

Reading this thread has made me very glad that I've nver taken a class in music theory so I don't have to waste time worrying why a song doesn't work and can just enjoy it.

I do want to echo whoever said that if he never writes another note he's got an unbeleiveable canon of work. You could throw half his output away and still say that.

[elvisitis1302]

Posted: 2/23/07 at 6:16pm

Also, it's important to note that Bounce was not the original production of this work. Having been fortunate to hear the original score of "Wise Guys" I can say it changed a TON - basically to the point of being an entirely different show - some for the better and some for the worse, but it changed.
Thus being said, after so many revisions a show simply can't be perfect - there is too much missing. I think Sondheim did a great job with Bounce as his original "vision" had been forced to change so much.
I hope that wasn't rambling bull**** and that it made sense, but that's my opinion.

And just to note - he certainly has NOT lost his voice - and I don't think anyone can make that assumption based on a sole show.