Skip to main content
My Shows
News on your favorite shows, specials & more!
Home For You Chat My Shows Register/Login Games Grosses

Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star? - Now with Stage Miking Discussion

New Post Search Report Abuse Rules

Welcome Guest. Please Login or Register.

#1

Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star? - Now with Stage Miking Discussion

Posted: 12/17/08 at 8:51pm

I was just reading the thread about Sandy Duncan in Peter Pan, and I was reminded of what is to me one of the great mysteries of Broadway.

I saw the Peter Pan tv special with Mary Martin several times as a child, and at least once as an adult. I've seen her in several tv appearances, and her few bit parts in Hollywood movies. I've even seen part of her performance as Annie Oakley in the version she did for television. And of course I have heard her singing on many different cast albums.

And I just don't get it. What's the big deal? Her voice is warm and distinctive, but the scoops drive me batty. And she had such a tiny voice, a voice that works on recordings, but I can't imagine how she ever managed to be heard beyond the first few rows in the days before microphones.

Her acting in the the South Pacific clips I have seen is very good indeed. On the other hand, her performance in Peter Pan was overly cutesy, in my opinion. And her looks were a distraction. Not that she was homely, but she was definitely not photogenic. Something about her nose, I think. Hollywood obviously agreed as she had no film career to speak of.

I'm guessing that whatever quality she possessed that made Broadway audiences and critics alike fall on their knees in worship of her was a quality that only came through in live performances. For whatever reason, this quality did not translate to film or television. As someone who never saw her live and has only seen her on film, I'm left scratching my head wondering what the big fuss was all about.

I'd love to hear the opinions of those who did see her perform live, as well as those who like me have only seen her on film or heard her recordings.

Updated On: 12/22/08 at 08:51 PM

#2

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 9:25pm

I never saw her perform live, but from everything I've read, there was never any problem hearing her in a theater. She has a lighter voice, but apparently she knew how to project that right to the back of the house.
Some people paint, some people sew, I meddle.
#3

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 9:29pm

Okay, I'll buy that, but there must have been something else she projected in live performance. What was her "It" factor?
#4

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 9:39pm

Honestly, I don't know either. I've actually wondered it for a while, and I'm trying to keep bumping this thread up.

Cause I'm with you. I don't doubt the woman had something. She beat Ethel Merman for a Tony, for Christ's sake. But, having never seen her, I'm sure what IT is.

Someone, help us!!
Some people paint, some people sew, I meddle.
#5

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 9:47pm

I guess I'm old enough but confess that I never saw her live. Martin had a believability about her and a big lovely personality. I personally feel that Tom Hanks is much the same way. There is just something right about him and she was the same in that regard.

Plus she was blessed with some great roles at just the right time and she was liked and respected by her peers.

Someone asked Mark Ruffalo how it was that he keep getting movie roles when there were so many guys like him around fighting for parts. He responded that he always arrived promptly knowing his lines, sober, prepared, and tried to be nice to people. There is a lot to be said about professionalism.

I suspect that when a nice person with talent is seen often in terrific roles, fans naturally start to identify and grow comfortable with them.
#6

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 9:49pm

Well I'm glad to know I'm not alone!

I thought this thread might draw some thoughtful responses and might even be a bit controversial and spark some heated debate, which I enjoy, but clearly I was wrong.

If only Mary Martin had lived long enough to play Madame Morrible, then this would have been a surefire hot topic.
#7

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:04pm

I saw Mary Martin onstage in Hello, Dolly and I Do I Do in a large theatre. I had no trouble hearing her in either show. She had warmth, charm and seemed down to earth. There was no high drama about her like there is with two particular women who are currently appearing on Broadway. She also knew how to project.

The popular image of Ms Martin is as Nellie and Maria; but her first big break came in "Leave It To Me" (193re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star? where she introduced "My Heart Belongs To Daddy." She stole the show from Sophie Tucker.
#8

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:08pm

I saw Martin twice -- once in Peter Pan and once in I Do! I Do! While she was never a personal favorite (I much preferred Ethel Merman), she did have presence and an ingratiating personality. And, in both shows, she wasn't miked. ID!ID! played at the 46th Street (now the Richard Rodgers) -- I had a seat in the nosebleed section, and believe me, you could hear every word. You might want to check out her performance on the Ford 50th Anniversary show -- she and Merman did a 15-minute duet while both were in the prime of their careers. It's on DVD and I believe you can still get it on CD, although not sure.
BroadwayEd
#9

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:12pm

LAL! I'm sure glad somebody brought this up because I had the same experience and wonder. I'd say Mary Martin has much in common with Barbara Streisand in opposite voice polarity. Yet both have that enigmatic "star??" quality. Whereas Barbara's sustaining high notes are akin to an unremitting 110 dB air raid siren, Mary Martin has just the opposite tiny voice going for her.

Conclusion? Tis just one of the deep dark secrets of show biz.

One their producers (or seducers) know for sure. Maybe it comes down to it ain't who you know, it's who you __________?
#11

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:15pm

I've asked this question myself. Being about the #1 fan of The Sound of Music, I've heard Martin on the OBC album many, many times, though I've never been able to locate any video footage from the show. Compared to other Marias I don't really care for her vocal interpretation. I agree that there really must have been something special about her live performances - having seen the TV version of Peter Pan and heard the cast album for that, I think her live renditions of the songs have much more spirit and character in them.
#12

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:16pm

I'm a complete sucker for old school, old time, legendary actors of stage, screen and tv that helped pave the way and set the standard for today. I wish the likes of Martin, Merm, Orbach and Loudon (among many others) could come back to life for just one day and humble many of the stars of our time.
#14

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 10:56pm

Not very bright, are you? You are rather knee-jerky. Try thinking outside the square, if you dare.

Updated On: 12/17/08 at 10:56 PM

#15

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 11:06pm

I was lucky to have seen Mary Martin live in “Hello Dolly”, “I Do, I Do” & “Jenny”. The theater for Dolly was 2500 seats and in the second balcony she could be heard perfectly with no microphone. Her voice was so pure and effortless sounding and capable of such subtlety that it gave the impression that the voice was not powerful but not only could she soar above the much larger than today’s pit orchestras used in her time, her high and sustained notes had a seamless legato quality unlike any female singer I have ever heard before or since. She was not a great beauty but she was not unattractive and could be quite glamorous. In I Do, I Do, she played a character whose age went from a young adult to an elderly woman and she was thoroughly convincing throughout. In the movie “Night and Day” she is quite alluring reprising “My Heart Belongs to Daddy”, the song that made her a star on Broadway. She even elevated a mediocre show such as “Jenny”, which was not worthy of her talent but she nevertheless delivered her usual superb performance to the audience.

Mary Martin’s talent was best served live; it did not translate well in media, the sole exception being “Peter Pan”, which is still a fond memory for millions of baby-boomers who regard her as the definitive “Pan” even though she was a middle-aged woman when she played the role of a young boy who never grew up. Sandy Duncan, Mia Farrow & Cathy Rigby pale by comparison to her in the role. She remains the definitive Nellie Forbush in “South Pacific”, not only because she is still the finest singer ever to perform this role anywhere or anytime, but because again, although she was a little too old to play the character when she originated the role, she infused it with a sincerity and charm that can be clearly heard on the original cast recording, which is still superior to every other recording of “South Pacific”, especially the 2008 one. Mary Martin was a one of a kind performer who cannot be compared to anyone today because musical theater has not produced a single singing actress in the last 25 years that can even come close to the magic of experiencing Mary Martin in live performance. But you had to be there. I was and I wish everyone reading this could have been there to witness it. Mary Martin was simply an incomparable and unforgettable performer.
"I long-ago realized that this country is a nation of morons, when it comes to knowledge of anything outside, or beyond, pop culture." Steve Slezak
#16

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/17/08 at 11:44pm

You can't judge the effectiveness of a live theatre performer by what you get on video or recordings.

I daresay Garbo or Monroe might be bores on stage...but on screen they were luminous.

Hell... Even on screen Bette Midler pales in comparison to LIVE on stage Midler

Same with theatre performers.. I saw Martin in Legends.. and while it was a lousy play she held the audience like only a Master Theatre performer can.


My friends who saw her in DOLLY and I DO, I DO say it had to be experienced LIVE. Her charisma was palpable.. and you can't preserve that with any second hand media.

So you'll just have to trust those who were around who saw her live when they tell you she was a STAR of the first order on stage.




What great ones do the less will prattle of

Updated On: 12/18/08 at 11:44 PM

#17

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 12:03am

Mary Martin was pure theatrical magic. There was a presence the second she walked on stage that I have only seem in one other performer - Angela Lansbury. I first saw Martin in Peter Pan during the San Francisco try out. You never doubted she WAS Peter Pan. I also saw her in Sound of Music, I Do I Do, Hello Dolly and Jenny. It is impossible to pin down just what made her a star, but seeing her, there is no doubt that she was the personification of the word and concept. She was a wonderful actress being completely different in each role.
Her main competition was Ethel Merman who I found was pretty much the same character no matter what the show.
I met Martin after the Peter Pan performance and she was a lovely, warm person off stage too. She was pure Broadway and had to be seen in person to really be appreciated.
#18

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 12:14am

Thank you for this thread! Not that I ever doubted Mary Martin as a performer, but getting to hear people's individual experiences of seeing her is such a treat for those of us who are too young to be able to have experienced that. I wish so much that I could go back in time to see all these legends on stage.
"This table, he is over one hundred years old. If I could, I would take an old gramophone needle and run it along the surface of the wood. To hear the music of the voices. All that was said." - Doug Wright, I Am My Own Wife
#19

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 2:43am

Mary Martin is my alltime favorite Broadway performer. Unfortunately I did not see her live, but did see her on television several times on various award shows and things in her later years.

The roles written for her! The shows she starred in for years, never missing a performance, never taking a break to do a TV pilot!

And her enunciation, her diction, is flawless on her many recordings. That must have been what helped carry her voice through the theaters unamplified.

And the sheer warmth that she radiates, with the children in various shows, with Pinza and Bikel. Just marvelous. And her falsetto voice, used to such great effect in the "Mysterious Lady" number in "Peter Pan." I don't think it will ever work with any other actress.

She was extremely glamorous in her early shows ("Venus" and "Lute Song," anyone?), but when she did the "Annie Get Your Gun" national tour producers realized that she was really a Texas gal with a gamine-like quality. That led directly to "South Pacific" and "Peter Pan." And of course, "The Sound of Music" is such a star role--hardly off stage, sings or is sung to in virtually ever number, and made it so magical that I cry every time the cast album gets to the climax of "Do Re Mi."

Her tour of "Dolly" to Vietnam solidified her legendary status, and "I Do" was icing on the cake. What a remarkable woman, who inspired Cole Porter, Kurt Weill, Jule Styne and of course Richard Rodgers to do their very best work. And who helped Goddard Lieberson and Lehman Engel do their very best studio cast recordings.

"Never Never Land" is a flawless track. Just listen to it and marvel.

Warmth, warmth, warmth.

Updated On: 12/18/08 at 02:43 AM

#20

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 7:06am

It's important to point out that she was miked. She wasn't body miked, but there were floor mikes and possibly other area mikes in all the Broadway musicals she did starting with South Pacific.

For a long time, I didn't get her either. I'd loved her in Peter Pan as a kid, but when I got older and watched her in that, she seemed very calculated and unspontaneous.

But then I saw her in Together With Music, the TV special she did with Noel Coward. And the more I've seen and heard of her since then has convinced me.

For one thing, watching the second Peter Pan (which can be seen at the Paley Center), rather than the color one (the third one, done several years later), she was just so much more spontaneous.

I love her in that TV Annie Get Your Gun because her take on the role is so different from Merman's or anyone else I've seen. There's no question that this Annie is totally a feminine woman, there's nothing butch about her at all. She just happens to shoot better than any man. It's a very different take on the character and it works. And her Annie has a great, sly sense of humor.

And in the dance preceding "I'm an Indian, Too" (or is it after?), well, I love Merman too, but that's something Merman never could have done.

In The Season, William Goldman includes her on his list of Critics' Darlings, all of whom, he says, are freaks. And for better or worse, she was. The more I've seen of her on video and the more I've heard of her in archival recordings, she was definitely a larger-than-life performer, which you may not get so much from her cast recordings. And that's one of the things that made her a huge star in the days before amplification. She delivered to the back of the house. Her performances carried (as I'm sure her voice did as well).

She had a strange delivery of dialogue (as Merman did in a very different way). A friend of mine thinks she always sounded like Zasu Pitts, which is kind of true. She had amazing comic timing. And she was very alive onstage, which Merman wasn't always. (Some say Merman almost never was, but I don't buy that.)

And one testament to her came from Lotte Lenya. In the book of letters between Lenya and Weill, they're both nasty about an awful lot of people. But there's a letter from Lenya to Weill, while One Touch of Venus is running and he's out in Hollywood. It's late in the run and she's been stopping in to watch it from time to time to make sure it's staying in good shape. She writes to Weill praising Martin very highly for holding the show together, for giving a performance that seems completely fresh and spontaneous more than a year into the run. She doesn't seem to have had much good to say about a lot of people, but she has nothing but the highest praise for Martin.

And about her scooping, I prefer to call it portamento and I like it. I think she phrased incredibly, as did Merman in a very different way.
#21

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 11:02am

She was star because in additional to being enormously likable and having charisma, she was the girl next door made good. She also was incredibly generous and kind -- I met her during "Do You Turn Somersaults?" when I was 14 and she spent 20 minutes talking to me inside the stage door. She knew what being star was -- there are many people with similar stories of her innate kindness to her fans. As far as the voice: look at some of her Hollywood work on Youtube. Not sexy, but she could make you believe it. A marvelous talent.
#22

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 11:49am

And you know the old stories of the stamina of the classic theatre stars? Mary Martin took it one step further. I have a couple of Playbills from her first Broadway performance (Leave it to Me!) and for at least part of the run she would leave the theatre at 11:30 and go to the Rainbow Room and star in their midnight show. It's got to tell you something that this woman was so appealing and so affecting (and effective) when seen in a live performance that she would be featured in two separate live forums at the same time.

Oh, to have been a theatre-goer in NY at that time!
www.thebreastcancersite.com
A click for life.
mamie4 5/14/03
#23

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 11:52am

Watching Mary Martin in Peter Pan was the reason I love Broadway today. She will always be my favorite Broadway performer.
#24

re: Why Was Mary Martin Such a Big Star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 1:31pm

Based solely on recordings and clips - I was just a hair too young to have seen her live - I must agree with the above poster who said "warmth, warmth, warmth." That is what I feel from Mary each time I hear her.

And I just love it!
I can't wait to dig out my old VHS of Peter Pan this Christmas and watch her magic unfold once again.
Laughter is much more important than applause. Applause is almost a duty. Laughter is a reward. Carol Channing
#25

why was mary martin such a big star?

Posted: 12/18/08 at 1:39pm

she could suck a golfball through a garden hose and was not shy about inviting critics backstage after her shows to demonstrate (they say she taught virginia hill all she knew). and if they were not into her, she was powerful enough to give them any chorus boy they wanted for the night. provided she got to watch. she was more feared than winchell.
r.i.p. marco, my guardian angel.

...global warming can manifest itself as heat, cool, precipitation, storms, drought, wind, or any other phenomenon, much like a shapeshifter. -- jim geraghty

pray to st. jude

i'm a sonic reducer

he was the gimmicky sort

fenchurch=mejusthavingfun=magwildwood=mmousefan=bkcollector=bradmajors=somethingtotalkabout: the fenchurch mpd collective

← Back to Message Board

BroadwayWorld TV

View all Videos

Ticket Central
Ticket Central
Ticket Central
Hot Show
Tickets From $59
Hot Show
Tickets From $71
Hot Show
Tickets From $71
Hot Show
Tickets From $95
More Hot Shows Discounts
Recommended For You