Wicked vs. Les Miserables Debate- Page 3

[Beergoggles]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:04pm

what's this Gavroche? You never let me quote you... i'm so hurt!

[gavrochegirl]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:07pm

You can quote me! All I'm waiting for is for someone to ask me! Well, that's two BWWers that've quoted me...ZBraff and Rath. You can be the third one if you ask beergoggles!

[ashley0139]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:09pm

This thread is making my head hurt.

[ljay889]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:11pm

da onlie ding dat hurtz iz peepiez toking bad bout my wickie. as i saidie yall wish sky goldman, soundheimer, and leopoard birdcare were as goddly as stephan Shortz.

[Beergoggles]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:14pm

i'm too James Dean "rebel without a cause" cool to do that... how could you even suggest it Gavroche

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:15pm

Can we go back to the regularly scheduled programming? Trying to translate those posts into english is giving me a headache AND make me nauseous!

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:24pm

Les Miz isn't commercial?

(First of all: It's my favorite show and I've seen it 50 times as of yesterday.)

It sure is commercial. It's a brand. Thanks to Cameron Mackintosh, it's standardized everywhere. Caslon Antique + Russ Eglin's modification of Bayard's etching = brand. One Day More march the same in every country? Oh yes. Of course, there have been regional productions in Australasia for years, and now LMSEs, but when Cammack oversees everything, the brand stays totally intact.

It's excellent at what it does. Look at how well the school editions are doing. No matter what your talent pool, hey, do Les Miz, everyone knows all about it, and you'll make money!

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:25pm

I'm just saying that while, yes, Cameron Mackintosh make their money - the show doesn't sell out commercially while WICKED does.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:28pm

What did Wicked do to sell out? Seriously. I'm not being sarcastic. I haven't really followed what's been going on with Wicked enough to see the solid basis behind several people saying "selling out" (mostly because I'm allergic to Shizheads).

I assume one of these things is stunt casting relatively early in the run.

[iluvtheatertrash]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:34pm

See my post at the top of this page.

[ashley0139]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:38pm

I'm allergic to Shizheads

Now THAT is hilarious. I'm going to have to use that comment when encountering one, if you don't mind.

[Sally]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:38pm

Les Miserables is a serious, moving musical with serious themes and beautiful music;it has made a lot of people cry and has sold a gizzillion tickets.

Wicked is a feel-good musical with some pleasant songs (All singing-all dancing!), a bit of serious theme, and a tear-producing moment or two. It seems to be on its way to selling a gizzillion tickets.

Neither is the musical equivilent of Hamlet.

I think both types of musicals have their places in the genre. I enjoyed both.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 8:43pm

See my post at the top of this page.

I guess you could also say Les Miz did the same thing, seeing as it softened a lot of themes and some characters (namely the Thénardiers), and cut out a lot of characters -- but that was probably more out of neccessity than a goal to sell tickets.

Although they did cut out one of James Fenton's songs for Gavroche, which they were afraid would offend the wealthier patrons.

[Derek]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 9:45pm

ok i didnt read any of these lol, im just stating i personally enjoyed wicked better than les miz, however both are amazing works

[Aigoo]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 11:19pm

Oh man. I MUST check these out. OUCH. Is that actually the ENGLISH keyboard they're using? Oy.

Posted: 7/21/05 at 11:27pm

Here's a thought.

Wicked n Lez Miz- so different, cant compare the end.

[Derech2]

Posted: 7/21/05 at 11:28pm

Honestly it is difficult to compare the two because they're completely different.

But anyhow let me try a quick overview of the two, starting with the theme of LOVE.

Wicked - two girls are called friends because they do each other's hair and share "feelings." Fiyero and Elphaba are deemed to be in love, after ... what exactly happened? The hunk falls for the blonde but then is impressed by the green girl's spunk. He runs away with her and they make out in the forest. That, my friends, is true love at its best. I'm not seeing much sacrifice or selflessness going on, but maybe I missed it.

Les Mis - where does one start? Fantine died for her daughter. Valjean dedicated her life to rearing Cosette. Eponine gave her life to protect Marius's.

Les Mis -- it drips with lessons in love, forgiveness, vengeance, honor, and fighting for what you believe in. Please don't get me wrong. I'm a huge fan of Wicked. I listen to it everyday. I think it has fantastic music and beyond fantastic performers. But when you strip both Les Mis and Wicked to the essence of what each show is saying, Wicked just seems downright shallow.

I think Wicked had the potential to be a lot better. Like someone said previously, the fact that Elphaba did not die stripped the show of what could have been riveting, hearbreaking poignancy. I know this is a horribly subjective issue, but parts of the script and staging in Wicked are poorly written and awkward.

Just my opinion. Les Misérables is my favorite show of all time, and Wicked certainly does not fall far behind. This debate certainly could go on and on and on ....

Updated On: 7/21/05 at 11:28 PM

[Radioactiveduck]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 2:51am

How can you compare an incredible piece of theater (Les Mis) to commercial, sell-out material such as WICKED
Ouch, that was needlessly harsh.


It went to please audiences instead of intrigue audiences.
You can't have a show like Wicked that is so inspirational (even you have to admit that it is at times) and have the ending you suggested. It's just too different for one show.

Just because a show makes you sad and cry doesn't mean it's all that good. MISS SAIGON...I thought it was pretty good. However, all of the saddness really altered my opinion on the show, and in a negative way. HAIRSPRAY on the other hand is comepltely uplifting and hopeful and has very few sad moments...and it's one of the best shows of the last 5 years.


Updated On: 7/22/05 at 02:51 AM

[Thenardier]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 3:06am

If you can't tell, Les Mis is my favorite show.

1) It is commercial. Most things on Broadway are. But Les Mis, Cats, Phantom (Mackintosh) is commercial. Wicked is commercial as well.

2) Just because the lead doesn't die, doesn't make it bad theatre. I agree, Wicked could have been dark and all those other useful adjectives we throw around because it is easy to criticize. However, many people involved said they weren't going for the same darkness as the novel. I leave it at that.

I wouldn't call it fluff becasue some one doesn't die.

It's called knowing who your audience will be.

[writer/producer]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 3:24am

This is wonderful! You all inspired us so much we had to register.
Ok. We are in the process of writing a musical. We love the sing-through approach that Les Mis took and have been inspired by the gorgeous melodies and expression of emotion we feel while watching/listening to Les Mis. However... We very Much realize the impact/effect that Wicked has had on everyone(including us!)
Now, I know they are two entirely different musicals, and we have our own opinion as to which one is superior. They both inspire/entertain for their own reasons. Our question's are?????..... 1. Have you seen both? If yes proceed.
2. What is your favorite part of each? 3. What do you dislike about each. 4. What is the most memorable moment of each show? 5. Who do you identify most with? 6. Are you a male or a female? 7. How old are you- (range it 10-20,20-30,30-40, etc... This is important information. Because as much as you all may want a Brilliant new Musical. We would like to write one. We have been lucky, our song writing skills have beeen somewhat acclaimed, however.... we need you. What do you all want? You all obviously care, and are passionate enough to get involved, so we really welcome and respect your opinions.
I am amazed at the knowlege all of you have regarding these shows. I honestly would love to know your answers.
We have many mmore questions and would welcome any and all responses.
Please let's discuss this, and if anyone is interested in keeping up to date on our progress... feel free to private us and we will keep in touch.

Thanks again, and do us a favor... Don't EVER forget about Musical Theatre and what goes into making it happen. We need and welcome all the Support we can get. And sorry if this is too random.

[LizzieCurry]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 3:36am

1. Have you seen both? If yes proceed.
Les Miz 50 times; Wicked once pre-Broadway

2. What is your favorite part of each?
Les Miz: The finale. Wicked: Defying Gravity. It's just a very powerful scene.

3. What do you dislike about each.
Les Miz: some of the trite lyrics. Wicked: The stupid ending.

4. What is the most memorable moment of each show?
The act 1 finales of both, I think.

5. Who do you identify most with?
Cosette. She lives in a house, is not dirty, doesn't get shot, and has a loving father who doesn't run a gang. I don't think I identify with anyone in Wicked. Maybe Boq. Because I am short and precocious.

6. Are you a male or a female?
Female

7. How old are you
27

[Thenardier]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 3:45am

Welcome to BWW.

1. Wicked - 5, Les Mis -7. Before I begin, Les Mis was my frist show, and my into to theatre. I saw it when I was 5.

2. Wicked/Les Mis - Act 1 finish. They both have a similar beginning, with a large, powerful downbeat. For Les Mis, it sets the mood. Wicked - NGD DG (as I said). It's hard to say specific parts I like of Les Mis. I think it is such a perfectly continuous show that you can't have one part without another. The other thing, Les Mis is serious but when you reach that point where you can't take death anymore, they introduce comedy. For Les Mis, I also liked the minimalistic approach to the setting. My theory is if you want to minimalize the set, go all the way (a la Cabaret revival). If you want the extreme, go the etreme. Don't stop half way. I think Les Mis had a very minimal set, yet they filled the stage well and the material was so strung, you don't even need the sets.

3. What do you dislike about each.
I dislike the Cart scene from Les Mis - the staging in slow motion. I don't care for Turning - especially since the "turn tables" were a Les Mis-thing. But otherwise, no real complaints.

Wicked - the lyrics....nessa/confess a..need I say more? I think the book is also blah. Les Mis is much more universal.

4. What is the most memorable moment of each show?
Wicked - witch flying.
Les Mis - the barricades...."On My Own"
For me, it's MAster of the House. I have a personal attachment since it was the final line (Raise it up the master's ass) that sparked my interest - I was FIVE!

5. Who do you identify most with?
Character in each show? OR show itself?

In Wicked - Elphaba. For obvious reasons.
Les Mis - the characters are so much more complex and aren't simple "good girl turns popular" and "ugly girl turns even less popular but befriends said popular girl"

6. Are you a male or a female?
Male

7. How old are you- (range it 10-20,20-30,30-40, etc...
43...No, just kidding. 18.

Definitely keep in touch with future plans!

[jam_man]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:18am

writer/producer - the best thing you could do (just my opinion, of course) is to not care at all what we think. The minute you start writing based on what we want to see, we become part of the writing which detracts from your own writing. That's what many people complain about in today's musicals, especially Wicked. Just my two cents, so I'll get off the soap box and go to bed.

[writer/producer]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:31am

Thank The both of you SO much. We love hearing this !
We will most certainly keep in touch. You are our first responses!!!
Thanks for being so welcoming, and for providing us with so much valuable info. This is SO helpful! Interesting, yet logical that we all like the Act 1 Finale's. It is such an important part of a show,
Thenardier We loved your comments regarding, "the minimalistic sets"... and going all the way. We could not agree more! And Lizzie... You are a trooper to see Les Mis 50 times. I think you have us beat! Question though... Which lyrics or segments of lyrics do you find most trite/ And Thernadier... At the time which Character did you identify with most?

And to all... Which Character do you identify with most?
Thank you, and I hope this will be an ongoing discussion.
I will keep in touch with both of you!

[writer/producer]

Posted: 7/22/05 at 4:43am

to jam man...
Thank You very much, but I disagree. I think one of the biggest problems in todays musicals is the fact that most Producers, Writers, etc... don't want to or just don't care about what people want. There needs to be a connection. What you all want to see is a lot different than, "what do you all think of this lyric"?.
What we found so interesting about this site was how much people really care. I am all for the Art aspect of Musical theatre and song, but we want to be in touch with what people want. In theory I agree with ,"Don't care what the people think". But... I have seen many musicals fail for that very reason. I am not saying that if someone says, "NO TURNTABLES"! that we won't have one. I just really respect what everyone has to say and want to learn more about what todays BWY audience wants. Thank You.