the problem with Grey Gardens — Page 4

"Oh, I could go on. Living in that kind of squalor and not doing anything about it is one of the symptoms of severe mental illness. I know this from my sibling's condition."

Yup! I admittedly haven't seen the show or the documentary (I've heard the OBCR though, if that counts for anything) but from what I know about the two women as well as the show, I have to wonder if there wasn't some sort of psychopathology involved.

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I always thought she was at least half-joking there...

And not that I really have an opinion on this, but the idea that all art is flawed is really your opinion. It's not a fact. It's not even the majority opinion throughout the ages of dramatic theory and criticism. Read up on the various views of "sublime" and you will see that many have designated that some art is perfect. The Statue of David, for example.

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Historically (before the romantic period) artists/writers/thinkers/etc. have been obsessed with the idea of perfection just as they have been obsessed with the idea fo attaining holiness, proof of God on earth. A quote from Kant:

"The judgment of taste is entirely independent of the concept of perfection."

There are undoubtedly cultures that have existed or do exist that may find the David in poor taste, or lacking. Picasso for example found beauty in what was ugly, deformed. Impressionist painters went out of their way to depict a surreal state of life (as do Korie and Frankel and Wright).

Arguably (as many early thinkers thought) perfection is not desirable because it means the end. Once you have created the perfect piece of art, what need is there to continue? The perfect book? The perfect life? Many, myself included, feel that there is much beauty in imperfection, because everything is in some way imperfect.

Perfection is a philosophical concept and no person holds the same standards for it. Therefore, no art is perfect.

If perfection is a mathematical concept or the perfect achievement of a set of rules (say, dramatic aristotelian rules), then Grey Gardens is an incredibly imperfect musical because it completely subverts the tradition even as it upholds it. I would say that the things that make Grey Gardens imperfect are some of what you love about it. Personally, I think it's really childish to even use the word perfection. What the heck is it even supposed to MEAN, besides in the most general, buzzwordish sense?

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And like I said--I don't even have an opinion on the matter either way. Is any art truly perfect--I dunno. My point was that there are different views on the subject. I just wanted to counter your grand proclamation.

I don't think I would say that GG was perfect. And my definition of perfect in terms of writing would simply refer to the piece needing absolutely nothing more or less to be a thrilling evening of theatre. And by that definition, I think there are quite a few "perfect" pieces of theatre. I just don't agree with any of the supposed flaws listed here.

But by the definition I can easily assume you are using, perhaps no art is perfect, I haven't thought too much on it as I *try* to avoid "perfectionism" in my creating of art and I don't always expect it of others. If it exists, it's rare I would guess.

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And, of course, one could still find it a rather thrilling evening of theatre and still think that the connective tissue to link Acts 1 and 2 to make the entire evening truly transcendent just didn't exist.

But that's just me.

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Great post, Roninjoey

"It kind of scares me that some of you (and others out there as well) are so quick to condemn her "in total" for thinking and behaving differently."

Just to be clear. I'm not doing that. I ran a business for years that was set up just to employ and give dignity to people with emotional illnesses, including schizophrenia and bipolar disorder among others. When you spend that much time with people with these illnesses you become able to spot particular behaviors and thought patterns that go along with different conditions. I'm just saying I recognize some of these in Edie.

I never equate the notion of mental illness with that of condemnation. I think Edie is one of the most glorious people I've encountered in this life and a tribute to individuality.

As far as art and perfection and this whole debate about whether or not Grey Gardens is flawed or not, JRBY and Ronin are both right and should stop arguing about it. Neither one of you can define perfection or imperfection for the other one. Art is in the eye of both the creator and the beholder. Ronin, you can't tell JRBY it has flaws, because it only has them for you. It doesn't have them for him and vice versa.

I love Grey Gardens. It works for me and I think it is close to perfect for me. There's not a thing anyone can say that will make that untrue, because you don't have the power to decide what works in my world. And likewise JRBY can't tell anyone who finds flaws in it that the flaws aren't there. They aren't in your world and perspective. But they are in his.

This is not to discourage discussion of these things. But it seams to have developed into a push to prove the other wrong, which neither of you can really do.

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This thread has become very interesting since I last read it. I love discussions about art.

Since art is "art" and not a science which can be measured by determined and proven formulas or charts, no one can really say what is perfect or not. The hackneyed phrase "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" is so true and always will be, thanks god.

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