Mr. Selfridge - Page 3

[DottieD'Luscia]

Posted: 5/21/14 at 6:23am

Ah thanks. I read a very interesting article about the real Mr. Selfridge. What a life.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/21/14 at 9:13pm

I thought the writing was a bit silly. In that last scene with Lord & Lady Loxley, he said something like "Get down on your knees" and she said something like "You're a small man in every way." I think if they're not careful the show will slip into soap opera.

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/22/14 at 6:05am

It's still a soap opera whether they say lines like that or not. And so is Downton Abbey, Up/Down and the rest.

They're all period soap operas. They all have occasionally silly and/or anachronistic dialogue.

This season, Selfridge just had a better overall plot with stronger individual storylines than its contemporary counterparts. That doesn't mean it wasn't a period soap. It still is.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/22/14 at 7:41am

I don't consider them soap operas. EastEnders and Coronation Street are soap operas. In America, it would be like saying Mad Men is a soap opera. I consider Selfridge, Downton, and Up/Down as dramas. In a drama, I expect the writing to be a cut above soap opera writing.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 3:34am

I finally watched the finale tonight (I always go to see my mom to watch.) Way to bring on the soap opera! But I'm not complaining--I think Fellowes and Downton Abbey shies away from soap--just when he should embrace it.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 3:38am

Gotham--and I mean this in the most benign way--when does a serial about relationships become a soap opera, and not become a soap opera?

I think it's a fair question (and I love Mad Men but I admit, I watch it as a slow moving soap opera--which means I watch for how the people--not just couples--interact.)

I did think Selfridge became more of a soap opera this year. But I think that helped the show.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 10:36am

My idea of a soap is the writing is simplistic and the acting is overly emotional. I will agree that the writing in Downtown Abbey has become more simplistic, but I think the acting (except for the Americans, Elizabeth McGovern, Shirley MacLaine) is still believable. (On Selfridge, I'm still amazed at how well Frances O'Connor pulls off an American accent. She sounds so natural).

EastEnders is the only soap I watch, so I'll use examples from that. In this show, they start storylines that have no resolution. And they count on their audience just forgetting or overlooking key plot points.

EastEnders takes place in the London community of Walford. There are more deaths in Walford than in anywhere else in the world. That's because a rule in soap opera is that when an actor wants to leave the show, they kill them off. And EastEnders took it to the extreme when they brought back a popular character (Den Watts) that was killed several years ago. I was a bit surprised when Julian Fellows killed off Matthew Crawley as it borders too much on soap opera. And yet he allowed O'Brien to just escape out into the world.

The acting on EastEnders is so unnatural. Everything is played at the highest emotional level possible. Plus each episode ends on a cliffhanger, so you have to tune in to the next episode.

But yet I and thousands of other people (including Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie) tune in to two episodes per week of EastEnders.

With Mad Men (and others dramas) the acting is very natural. You can believe that these are actual people in interesting situations. The actress who plays Sally is so perfect. She's always believable and doesn't slip into the drama queen teens on EastEnders.

Yes with Mad Men there's a lot of bed hopping which you find in soap operas, but it seems more character driven rather than in soap operas where the bed scenes just seem to be written to fill out the episode.

That's a lot to simply say that I think the difference between drama and soap opera is that in drama, the characters seem to have purpose and have an arc and the emotions are played in context. In soap opera, the character arcs are all over the place and are more caricatures. And the emotions are played like Acting 101.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 7:35pm

My issue with Mr Selfridge (and as we've already said Downton this past year suffered from this worse) was the pacing of the stories. I suppose they could be saving for next year but things like Delphine's sneaky plan to get Mr Selfridge being dealt with OH SO QUICKLY, etc.

I sometimes watch Eastenders and Coronation Street (both, Corrie especially, are big hits in Canada) and its funny some of what you say--Eastenders is infamous in the UK for being much more violent than other soaps (by violence I include deaths and murders)--on Coronation Street there may be at most one death a year, the big joke there is when a character is leaving the show you know it because you actually see them pull away in a cab. Eastenders is also notorious--especially during the past two Exec Producer's regimes (unlike American soaps which are controlled more by their headwriters, in the UK soap storyline is mapped out by their EPs)-for dropping stories with no explanation. So what you say speaks especially for EE, although I will admit that it's somewhat true of all soaps. I do think a lot of the acting on EE is quite good, however (it's usually the attractive younger actors they get who are embarassingly green.)

Even on the much more looks based American soaps there is some very good acting (although less and less so in the past 10-20 years when the tendency to hire models and hope they can act instead of taking most of their actors from the New York stage has really increased.) Where soaps can excell if done well is in telling long stories (including ones about sickness) and while definitely heightened, playing them out in 'real time.' They also can create complex character arcs over years and decades. Unfortunately often a new producer or writer will come in and force story on a character who will then suddenly be acting completely out of character. Still they have to churn out so much story year after year I can't fault them for how inconsistent the actual stories are (unlike a ten episode show like Selfridge or Downton.)

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 9:16pm

"My issue with Mr Selfridge (and as we've already said Downton this past year suffered from this worse) was the pacing of the stories."

I agree. Mrs. Hughes beat breast cancer in one episode. And Mrs. Patmore beat blindness in one episode. So yes, I guess Downtown aligns with my criteria for soap operas because neither of the women ever mention their problems again. And Bates is jumping around completely healed of his limp. So their character arcs change from episode to episode.

And one of the most hilarious things I saw on EastEnders. The character who played Beppie was written to try to woo Lynne Slater from getting married to Gary Hobbs. The actor that played Beppie got fired from the show, but they still continued with his story line. They just brought in a brand new actor for five episodes, gave him a new name and he just played out the rest of Beppie's storyline. Ha! Ha!

But to give credit where credit is due. A great exit was when Tamsin Outhwaite left. You see her in the train station and she asks a stranger what his favorite number is. Then you see her character head to the train platform of that number. It was so imaginative because her character just wanted to be anywhere but in Walford and she didn't care where she went.

But the one thing I hate about EastEnders is how much the unemployed people complain about not having work. You're in London, get on the Tube and ride into Central London and get a job!

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/23/14 at 9:52pm

Some character traits do keep constant though. Of course it's used for (melo)dramatic purposes, especially whenever there is a lack of storyline, but one example is an alcoholic in soaps. Just like in real life (except probably more so) in a time of crises, what makes it worse is said character falls off the wagon. Things like that tend to get forgotten in regular episodic TV very quickly (even serialized primetime shows.)

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 4:38pm

These matters are not so easy to define. The first series of Downton was much more than a soap, it set its plotlines within a wider context of social history. I've shared in other threads how some of the plotlines reflected the changes in social demographics that affected my own family history and, since I have no connection with Julian Fellowes, how that must have been common experience at the time. But then it nose-dived into soap operatics in series 2.

On the other hand, Coronation Street was produced by the same television company that also made Brideshead Revisited and The Jewel in the Crown. It currently has an award-winning playwright on its team and its early years are regarded as being the c20th equivalent of Dickens.

I didn't watch EastEnders for years because I felt it trivialised important issues. But I got absorbed again two or three years ago and, although it is inconsistent, I continue to watch it because when it is good it is extremely good. The episodes written by Simon Ashdown are a cut-above and I can find myself knowing half-way through such an episode that his name is going to appear in the credit titles.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 4:49pm

"But yet I... tune in to two episodes per week of EastEnders."

Two?

The BBC produces and screens four - you'll never catch up!

"But to give credit where credit is due. A great exit was when Tamsin Outhwaite left."

It's on YouTube.

EastEnders does do exits very well: Peggy, Pat and Stacey all get written out superbly - combining high melodrama with good writing and acting.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 5:27pm

"The BBC produces and screens four - you'll never catch up!"

I know. The stupid PBS still has us back in 2005 episodes. I went to London in 2012 and saw an episode of EastEnders and the only character I recognized was Phil Mitchell.

I really can't figure PBS out. At fundraising time, they always tell us how popular EastEnders is. Yet at fund raising time they will cancel EastEnders for three weeks to fund raise on crap like Celtic Women. And they always threaten "EastEnders is so expensive, we're going to have to cancel it." Then at the very last second "EastEnders is saved." The NYC PBS used to have a "pajama party" where they would show an extra four episodes of EE once a month, but I guess that got too expensive. I can't quite understand how they can have multiple showings of Call The Midwife, Selfridge and Bletchley Circle, but episodes of 2005 EastEnders are so expensive. I get it EE is a soap opera and not to everyone's taste, but I think PBS could do a better job of broadcasting it.

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 5:44pm

"EastEnders does do exits very well: Peggy, Pat and Stacey all get written out superbly - combining high melodrama with good writing and acting."

I just rewatched the Melanie Owen exit and it seemed like it was the nurse confirming her abortion appointment that picked the number over the phone. So her exit was left open-ended.

And some get stupid exits. The producers got tired of the Ferreira family so they just had them get in a car and drive away.

Barry (who was hilariously lampooned on Extras) falls off a cliff (or did Jeanine push him?)

I think the gangsters fare a bit better. Steve Owen dies in a fiery car crash. But Andy gets pushed off a bridge. Den Watts gets banged over the head with Pauline Fowler's doorstop.

I feel like I'm doing research for a sequel to Edward Gorey's The Gashlycrumb Tinies.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 5:52pm

I believe we are about 2 years behind on Eastenders here in Canada. However, we get five episodes a week, so are slowly gaining ground :P But I have so many British friends on facebook and belong to several UK-centered forums (for pop music, etc) so know most of the gossip about comings and goings. On the other hand We are only 2 weeks off from Coronation Street (the CBC a few years ago, after many complaints, got caught up by airing double episodes for a long time.)

Gotham, only a very small number of PBS' even air Eastenders. Unlike the shows they co-finance like Downton, it's not a priority and is picked up on a station by station basis (as are other UK imports--we get the Seattle PBS here, but they don't air EE, they never aired sitcoms like Coupling back in the day, or much more recently Miranda etc.) According to a book from the 80s I have, The Soap Opera Encyclopedia (yes, I am a bit obsessed with the genre and critiques of it) Corrie was also popular on many PBS' in the 80s.

So yeah, those Masterpiece/Mystery programmings tend to all be partly funded by PBS (I believe WGBH or whatever from Boston tends to handle all of that) which is why they get such premium showing (and why I find it baffling that PBS still insists on airing Downton, in particular, so long after the UK airing.) That's the difference. I think that's even true of Bletchley Circle.

Scripps, is the writer you mention for Corrie Jonathan Harvey? I'm very mixed on his plays (I love Beautiful Thing, partly for sentimental reasons although some of his other plays leave me cold and his libretto for the Pet Shop Boys musical, Closer to Heaven is pretty dismal) but I do notice the scripts tend to be particularly good when he's writing. A lot of good writers went through the Corrie ranks, although I admit I was surprised to see Harvey join it after his stage success--people like Russell T Davies, etc.

We also used to get Emmerdale here but, despite repeated tries to pair it first with Corrie on CBC and then with Eastenders on a different station it never caught on. I did watch the contoversial gay/euthanasia storyline though.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 5:54pm

I don't know why old episodes would be so expensive.

But new ones will be as the BBC has just commissioned a new set to replace the existing one.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 6:05pm

"or did Janine push him?"

I think Charley Brooks is a great actress when given decent material - there's a plotline to come involving her wealthy grandmother that is very well done. As for whether Janine pushed him, wait 'til you see what she does to her second husband - another convoluted, badly written plotline.

EastEnders really does trivialise murder - there are currently three unconvicted murderers loose in Albert Square and we're about to get a fourth.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 6:16pm

"Scripps, is the writer you mention for Corrie Jonathan Harvey?"

That's right. I enjoyed Beautiful Thing but I have little recollection of Rupert Street Lonely Hearts Club. I've also enjoyed other stuff he's written for television. Having said that, I don't actually watch contemporary Coronation Street but I do find the historic stuff fascinating.

Emmerdale I find to be unwatchable although I live quite close to the village where it used to be filmed (before they built the replica set) and have been for a drink in the pub.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 6:43pm

I only really watched the gay storyline to see what the fuss was about.

We've had a number of Corrie specials, and I've seen old episodes online--fascinating indeed.

[Scripps2]

Posted: 5/24/14 at 6:58pm

"And they count on their audience just forgetting or overlooking key plot points."

Coronation Street relies on its audience overlooking other things:







Updated On: 5/24/14 at 06:58 PM

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/25/14 at 3:09pm

"So yeah, those Masterpiece/Mystery programmings tend to all be partly funded by PBS"

Eric, that does make sense. I didn't think about that.

Several times I've said that I would be willing to pay a monthly fee to see certain British shows. We in the US have Acorn TV which is a pay service that broadcasts British television, but everything they broadcast is mostly available on dvd or YouTube. I would pay to see some of the modern shows.

[HorseTears]

Posted: 5/19/15 at 2:36am

Was visiting some friends yesterday.  Saw my first (and last) episode of this show.  Holy moly, what a turkey.  I know you have to take "Masterpiece Presents" with a giant grain of salt - especially when the import is produced by ITV and not BBC or Channel 4.  But this show makes Downton look like an actual, you know, masterpiece in comparison.  Jeremy Piven was probably well cast in Entourage, but, damn, is he woefully miscast here.  Was this his first period piece?  He looks, walks, sounds like an early 21st century guy from Sherman Oaks, not a turn of the 20th Century expat.  Though it's not entirely his fault.  Some of the dialog sounds so jarringly contemporary as well - I assume that's intentional.  The last scene I saw made me laugh out loud.  Selfridge, with his designer stubble, sitting down at a poker table and suavely introducing himself to the room as electric guitar and John Barry'esque brass swelled.  All that was missing was him introducing himself as "Selfridge.  John Selfridge" and ordering a dry martini "shaken, not stirred".  

[Hulmeman]

Posted: 5/19/15 at 8:30am

Sorry to hijack the thread backwards, but the earlier talk of Charley Brookes and Jonathan Harvey leads me to point out that she is currently touring in the UK as Sandra in "Beautiful Thing". I saw it a couple of weeks ago and she is indeed a fine actress in a very memorable production.

The show was due to go into the Arts Theatre in June, but the producers have cancelled the tour after it visits Leicester. Such a shame. 

[Gothampc]

Posted: 5/19/15 at 10:13am

"the earlier talk of Charley Brookes and Jonathan Harvey leads me to point out that she is currently touring in the UK as Sandra in "Beautiful Thing".

It's hard to believe that "Janine" is now playing the mother of a teenage son.

And back to the subject of the thread:

They really jacked up the melodrama when they added Zoe Wanamaker to the cast. Is she the "go to" actress when they need a larger than life character?

[best12bars]

Posted: 5/20/15 at 8:06am

I wasn't that impressed with Zoe or her character (or caricature) this season, except for the final episode when she went sleuthing for the facts about the architect. Then she got interesting to me. I blame the writing for not giving her more to do than be the superfluous Endora of this show. I like when she took matters into her own hands and became a plot instigator.

Lord Loxley is a good foil for Harry Selfridge. I love to hate him. And I miss Lady Mae. She was a wonderful character.

As for Selfridge himself, Jeremy Piven did some of his best acting in the season finale when he confronted his lady grifter. I was moved.

All in all, not a bad season. Very soapy. More about "who's doing what to whom" and less about the store this time. I wanted a little more store innovations, but that's just me.

I look forward to Season 4.

Updated On: 5/20/15 at 08:06 AM