It's Dame Angela Lansbury to you now- Page 2

[Scripps2]

Posted: 1/5/14 at 7:38am

As for Penelope Keith, why not Felicity Kendal whose career has had a much broader scope?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 1:01pm

Angela Lansbury deserved every honor going, but this was NOT an honor. I wish she had refused it. I'm a decade late to this conversation, I know, but better late than never. Dame of the British Empire? No, thank you. The British Empire was unmitigated evil.

Alan Cumming returned his OBE, "Order of the British Empire", earlier this year. He realized his mistake. I hope others do the same. Dame Julie Andrews. Dame Judi Dench. Sir Ian McKellen. Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber. Etc. It is OBSCENE. Seriously.

I was surprised to see you all so happy about this. I wish more people were like Glenda Jackson, who wisely told them to go stuff themselves. For anyone still in doubt, please consider reading the recent book by Pulitzer-winner Caroline Elkins. LEGACY OF VIOLENCE.

 "A searing, landmark study of the British Empire that lays bare its pervasive use of violence throughout the twentieth century. Sprawling across a quarter of the world's land mass and claiming nearly seven hundred million people, Britain's empire was the largest in human history. For many, it epitomized the nation's cultural superiority, but what legacy have we delivered to the world? Spanning more than two hundred years of history, Caroline Elkins reveals an evolutionary and racialized doctrine that espoused an unrelenting deployment of violence to secure and preserve British imperial interests. She outlines how ideological foundations of violence were rooted in Victorian calls for punishing indigenous peoples who resisted subjugation, and how over time this treatment became increasingly systematised. And she makes clear that when Britain could no longer maintain control over the violence it provoked and enacted, Britain retreated from its empire, destroying and hiding incriminating evidence of its policies and practices. Drawing on more than a decade of research on four continents, Legacy of Violence implicates all sides of the political divide regarding the creation, execution, and cover-up of imperial violence. By demonstrating how and why violence was the most salient factor underwriting both the empire and British imperial identity, Elkins explodes long-held myths and sheds a disturbing new light on empire's role in shaping the world today."

Additional details

 

Updated On: 11/2/23 at 01:01 PM

[MemorableUserName]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 2:53pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Angela Lansbury deserved every honor going, but this was NOT an honor. I wish she had refused it. I'm a decade late to this conversation, I know, but better late than never."

No, if you're choosing whether to dig up a nearly ten-year-old thread simply to criticize people for their opinions nine years later, most of whom haven't been seen on this board in years, "never" is better than late.

Updated On: 11/2/23 at 02:53 PM

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 3:10pm

Bringing back a decade-old thread to lecture people on the history of Britain's oppression and whether or not people should accept formal recognition from the monarchy is the very definition of insufferable.  It accomplishes absolutely nothing.

Updated On: 11/2/23 at 03:10 PM

[JSquared2]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 3:34pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Angela Lansbury deserved every honor going, but this was NOT an honor. I wish she had refused it. I'm a decade late to this conversation, I know, but better late than never.Dame of the British Empire? No, thank you. The British Empire was unmitigated evil.

Alan Cumming returned his OBE, "Order of the British Empire", earlier this year. He realized his mistake. I hope others do the same. Dame Julie Andrews. Dame Judi Dench. Sir Ian McKellen. Lord Andrew Lloyd Webber. Etc. It is OBSCENE. Seriously.

I was surprised to see you all so happy about this. I wish more people were like Glenda Jackson, who wisely told them to go stuff themselves. For anyone still in doubt, please consider reading the recent book by Pulitzer-winner Caroline Elkins. LEGACY OF VIOLENCE.
 

Oh please, you really are such a pompous BORE!

 

 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 5:02pm

I'm not lecturing or criticizing anyone. My only aim of derision is the British system for continuing such utter ridiculousness.

The book I mentioned just came out in paperback, on Oct 31. Tony-winner Alan Cumming returned his "honor" only this year, 2023. There was an obscene coronation ceremony a few months ago. All of this was in my mind when I posted. To this day, there is still an undeserved respect given to these stupid and unimportant titles.

Perhaps I could have started a new thread, but I doubt you would have received that any better. Reviving this one at least illustrates my point about the respect they still get. I don't shame anyone for their reactions at the time, but I'd be interested to know if their thinking has evolved over the years. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to "accomplish", Jason, is to diminish the power and respect Dames and Sirs and Lords and Baronesses and Dukes and OBEs, CBEs, and Marquises etc, etc. still get in the 21st Century. The class system is DEAD, or at least should be.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 5:49pm

Jay Lerner-Z said: "I'm not lecturing or criticizing anyone. My only aim of derision is the British system for continuing such utter ridiculousness.

The book I mentioned just came out in paperback, on Oct 31. Tony-winner Alan Cumming returned his "honor" only this year, 2023. There was an obscene coronation ceremony a few months ago. All of this was in my mind when I posted. To this day, there is still an undeserved respect given to these stupid and unimportant titles.

Perhaps I could have started a new thread, but I doubt you would have received that any better. Reviving this one at least illustrates my point about the respect they still get. I don't shame anyone for their reactions at the time, but I'd be interested to know if their thinking has evolved over the years. That's it.

The only thing I'm trying to "accomplish", Jason, is to diminish the power and respect Dames and Sirs and Lords and Baronesses and Dukes and OBEs, CBEs, and Marquises etc, etc. still get in the 21st Century. The class system is DEAD, or at least should be."

You do moral indignation so well that I have started thinking of you as the Jim Jordan of the Broadwayworld Message Board.  The law of diminishing returns has long taken over, although idiots like me still feel they need to respond to your moral indignation.  

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 6:09pm

Hm, I kinda resent that. A completely unfair delegitimization of a valid point. Jim Jordan is an idiot, a performative MAGAist without a soul. At least I save my moral indignation for things that are worthy of it, things that genuinely deserve condemnation. I'm sorry you feel this way, Jarethan.

That's four replies now without any of them actually addressing the issue I brought up. What have THEY "accomplished"? Sad.

[JasonC3]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 6:17pm

Maybe people didn't engage with the substance of your post Jay Lerner-Z because you're a broken record on related issues and when people do try and have substantive conversations you deflect, diffuse, and cry people are ganging up on you. 

 It's no wonder that your name commands so much of the Off Topic board real estate.  It is where most of your posts and opinions best fit.

If you truly want to change hearts or minds on any of the myriad of beliefs you try and advocate here, might I humbly suggest you rethink your approach.  If you're looking for a resource to help,  I might suggest reading Influence by Robert Cialdini.  It is generally consider to be one of the seminal works on the topic of changing minds. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/28815

Updated On: 11/2/23 at 06:17 PM

[Theatrefan2]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 6:18pm

I shouldn't bite but...I assume you're not British.  Otherwise you'd know the majority of the aristocracy is pretty broke and many houses are falling apart or sold off. 

The aristocracy also don't get any respect except from a very small part of society or snobs (just like rich people the world over get respect from social climbers). The class system doesn't exist really anymore, its more socioeconomic now. Whether it's money or titles based, every country has a class system of some sort. If they get respect from the general public its because they are just decent people, the same way you'd respect any decent people you come into contact with. It's not automatic deference based on a title.

The royal family is different as they are head of state. And even then its really only the very top tier that people have time for (if at all)

I agree the titles of things like CBEs and OBEs.should be changed and reference to the empire should be got rid of. The system needs an overhaul definitely. But the overall point of celebrating achievement is a good thing.

If you think we all go around bowing to dame judi Dench, you're very wrong. 

As for Dame Angela Lansbury, I wasn't even sure she deserved one in the first place. Amazing as she was, she hadn't exactly done alot for the UK in many decades.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 6:59pm

Jason, I assume you are talking about the Cursed Child thread. LGBT rights and respect should not be up for "debate"... ever. On other things, I am perfectly able and willing to discuss and consider alternative views. Your assessment of my character is incorrect, but sadly it seems as if you have already made up your mind.

Theatrefan2, you are right, I am not British. Or a citizen of the Commonwealth, so unfortunately ineligible for these ridiculous honors. As an outsider, they seem stupid. A relic of a long-gone era. Your suggestion of a name change is a good one. I could tolerate them if they dropped the "British Empire" tag. I feel that is unlikely to happen soon, sadly, given the recent nationalist fervor stirred up by Brexit. Has it even been suggested?

I'm sure you better than me about the remnants of the class system, but I think it still has much power. Just google how many of your recent Prime Ministers went to Eton. Why do you still have a "House of Lords"? Move on already, it is 2023. Dump it.

The thing that most irritates me is the continued lifelong "Sir" and "Dame" titles before their names in every conversation forevermore. They were knighted, we get it. Do people not realize that there is no obligation on us to bow down to them, especially Americans? #1776

"King" Charles is in his old colonial conquest of Kenya right now. Sickening.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 7:06pm

P.S. Jason, thank you for that book recommendation. I will check it out. I appreciate your constructive criticism.

[Jarethan]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 8:01pm

Theatrefan2 said: "I shouldn't bite but...I assume you're not British. Otherwise you'd know the majority of the aristocracy is pretty broke and many houses are falling apart or sold off.

The aristocracy also don't get any respect except from a very small part of society or snobs (just like rich people the world over get respect from social climbers). The class system doesn't exist really anymore, its more socioeconomic now. Whether it's money or titles based, every country has a class system of some sort. If they get respect from the general public its because they are just decent people, the same way you'd respect any decent people you come into contact with. It's not automatic deference based on a title.

The royal family is different as they are head of state. And even then its really only the very top tier that people have time for (if at all)

I agree the titles of things like CBEs and OBEs.should be changed and reference to the empire should be got rid of. The system needs an overhaul definitely. But the overall point of celebrating achievement is a good thing.

If you think we all go around bowing to dame judi Dench, you're very wrong.

As for Dame Angela Lansbury, I wasn't even sure she deserved one in the first place. Amazing as she was, she hadn't exactly done alot for the UK in many decades."

I always felt that the UK wanted to remind everyone that she was British and they wanted some credit for her amazing career.  Same thing with Elizabeth Taylor, although her AIDS work was undoubtedly a big factor.

The other thing relevant here to me: when they die, no one inherits their title.  It is an honorarium that says, in the case of an entertainer like Lansbury, thank you for your contributions that added to the quality of life of people in the UK.

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 8:41pm

Dame of the British Empire

The British Empire was evil. It was good for the British, but nobody else. Why would anybody want to be a Dame of it? It's evil even extends to modern day troubles in Gaza. There is nothing to be worshipped. It's over.

Can we at least concede the name of these "honors" is wrong?

If somebody in America gets a Presidential Medal of Honor, or a Kennedy Center Honor, they do not come adjacent with a title that forevermore the recipient must be called. Isn't that enough?

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/2/23 at 8:47pm

Also, I'm sure we all know that celebrity is the real reason these honors are awarded.

I'm sure there are countless public sector workers, nurses, teachers, civil servants etc. who deserve them just as much, if not more. Most of them get nothing.

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/3/23 at 11:16am

Jay Lerner-Z said: "Also, I'm sure we all know that celebrity is the real reason these honors are awarded.

I'm sure there are countless public sector workers, nurses, teachers, civil servants etc. who deserve them just as much, if not more. Most of them get nothing."

How I wish you'd shut up (I know you won't). If you'd made these comments at the time the thread was active, there at least would be some reason for it. But to revive this thread just to bloviate on your grievances with the British monarchy in a completely non-political thread on a basically non-political site is deeply solipsistic. And for the record, I says this as one in favor of abolishing the monarchy (and I'm not saying any more on that topic because, again, this is not the forum for such discussions). Go find a Reddit thread or some YouTube channel where people want to talk about this stuff. You're wasting everyone's time here. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/3/23 at 12:28pm

What did you expect when you clicked on this thread? The title in the subject line tells you what it is about.

Like I said earlier, there was a coronation recently. A renewed awareness of this issue. The constant use of "Sir" and "Dame" has not gone away over the last ten years. Especially in theatrical circles, at least in London. The title gives an air of utter reverance to actors such as Dames Maggie Smith, Judi Dench, Joan Plowright etc., echoing previous mythical stage actors like Dames Edith Evans, Peggy Ashcroft or Sirs John Gielgud, Laurence Olivier etc. It gives them an aristocratic feel of superiority. Shakespearean.

I thought the subject was worth re-visiting. You didn't. That's fine. Don't click, problem solved. I don't believe I need your approval to express myself.

Okay, so maybe, maybe, in the cold light of day I can see that was a bit of a stretch to put this up on the main board. However I was well-intentioned. I can't see why it seems to upset people so much. Or gives them a right to be rude and hurtful.

What triggered my post in the first place was Alan Cumming, of Broadway renown. This is what he said on instagram, and he can probably say it better than I can.

"... the Queen's death and the ensuing conversations about the role of monarchy and especially the way the British Empire profited at the expense (and death) of indigenous peoples across the world really opened my eyes. Also, thankfully, times and laws in the US have changed, and the great good the award brought to the LGBTQ+ cause back in 2009 is now less potent than the misgivings I have being associated with the toxicity of empire (OBE stands for Officer of the British Empire). So I returned my award, explained my reasons and reiterated my great gratitude fir being given it in the first place. I'm now back to being plain old Alan Cumming again..." 

 

[joevitus]

Posted: 11/3/23 at 3:18pm

Blah, blah, blah. I expected a comment on how much Lansbury deserved this honor. Not someone furiously riding a hobby horse. You'll probably keep responding, but I'm done with this exchange. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/3/23 at 4:07pm

Bye, Joe. I'm sorry that you judge me deserving of such contempt.

Enjoy your weekend.

[Impeach2017]

Posted: 11/4/23 at 1:48pm

We are bored tonight, aren't we?  If the British want to continue their game of make believe about a non-existent empire, I don't see any real harm in it; and I think what Cummings did was a real c°nt move.  Also, Lansbury gets a forever pass, end of story. 

[Jay Lerner-Z]

Posted: 11/4/23 at 4:58pm

Sorry, but what Alan Cumming did was admirable. More should do the same.

I also disagree that the game of make-believe does no real harm. Indulging the "grandeur" of a non-existent empire only stirs up nationalism and racism and xenophobia. Also completely ignores and erases from history the many, many victims of the inhumanity of colonialism.

Around this time of year many Brits wear poppies to remember the soldiers of World War 1. Shouldn't others get the same respect? "Rememberance" only applies to some?