Annie Get Your Gun--original vs. revisal- Page 2

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 10:04am

NH, this seems random, but I really want to say you're an awesome person to discuss (not argue) these things with--little things like how you say you're sure I know shows that are light in tone can deal with serious issues I think helps a great deal in keeping things like this a discussion, and having respect for the other person. I wish more people "argued" the way you do.

Now, in addition to our age difference, I also think what affects the way I view it is the way most legitimate theatre fans/experts tend to view it. I don't realize that a lot of my opinions on some of those older shows come from them, especially ones I never have the chance to see myself. Just something to go by as I strive to increase my knowledge of musical theatre.

The way AGYG has been presented to me as viewed by those people was a show with great music, lots of breakaway hits, but a show that was created very early on in the beginnings of the book musical. When I think about it, maybe half the songs don't *really* move the plot forward. So I think considering the light story it is anyway, that I think highly contributes to the reasons why I don't consider it to be a masterpiece and maybe don't take it as seriously as you do NH.

For the record, I very much agree that shows that don't bang us over the head with they're message respects the audience intelligence more.

And you bring a very interesting argument to the "racist" issue. I think when it comes down to it, you're completely viewing it in the context of the show, what motivates the character, etc, whereas a lot of other people may just be considering the song on its own. Neither way is particularly right or wrong, but it is important to realize that not everyone simply considers the character who is singing it and such, you know?

Posted: 3/17/07 at 10:16am

You didn't mention that Winnie and Tommy's songs were re-instated for the revival, at least during early performances. That was about the only good thing in the revival. The entire concept sucked, as did Peters' performance. In a later performance I saw, Reba McEntire and Brent Barrett somewhat redeemed the production, at least from a performance standpoint. Seeing Peters in this revival has somewhat scared me away from revivals and doesn't encourage me to ever pay money again to see her

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 2:05pm

Sure I did:

"*Some differences with the Tommy/Winnie subplot (which was removed for the '66 revisal)."

Err, I meant my stating that it was removed from the '66 revival that it was reinstated into the '99 one, and the subplot also includes the songs.

It's funny, I'm not sure how I feel about their subplot/songs. It certainly doesn't help that our Tommy and Winnie are pretty talentless...at first I hated the songs, now I kind of enjoy playing them and the dance breaks...but I don't know if I like them in terms of listening. Reading the '66 libretto, it doesn't seem like it hurt the show too much to remove them.

Are you serious about Bernadette? That's silly. She may have been miscast in the part (never saw her so I couldn't say), but she's brilliant in other things. Try watching the Sunday DVD, you'll see her brilliance.

Unless by the wink you meant that entirely tongue-in-cheek in which case I feel a tad embarassed...

NH, I thought of something else in terms of my general opinion of the show. Remember my first introduction to this show is the '99 version, where they had the whole show-within-a-show concept. That whole idea, including the freezing of everyone at the end, to me, makes it seem as though the authors or whoever realize it's fluff, and it's being presented perhaps moreso as fluff, especially with the ending, everyone freezing and all while Buffalo Bill says that's our story...which also makes me think the ending should be more fairy-tale like and not so realistic.

That could be a general fault of the revisal, and it's cool that I came across that, but yeah.

[fflagg]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 2:20pm

The revival AKA "Granny Get Your Gun" was a PC bore. Thank God for Reba who almost made it into a work of art. Bernadette was too old and miscast. Ethel's 1966 revival was for fun and not meant to be considered a true revival. She was about 35 when the show debuted in 1946.

Stick with Ethel.

Racist? Please. Stop with the PC crap.

[nobodyhome]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 2:59pm

Unfortunately, not everyone who posts here is able to have a civil discussion in which they actually deal with what the other person has written, as opposed to some fantasy version of what the other person has written. So I do enjoy talking with those who can, such as you, wrq.

Moving on: It does bother me when people use the word racist to describe AGYG. I think you can object to elements of AGYG without using a word that has a very ugly meaning and even worse connotations. Here's a link to dictionary.com and several definitions of the word:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racist&x=18&y=17

I don't want to belabor this, but I also don't see how, even if someone obects to aspects of AGYG, it can really be described as racist. But I'm open to hearing answers (though I confess I'm skeptical that I'll change my mind).
Updated On: 3/17/07 at 02:59 PM

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 4:56pm

Wait a minute, wasn't the '66 revival the one that was called "Granny get your gun" because Ethel was so old at the time?

I certainly can't comment on racist aspects, since the version I'm familiar with is the PC version. Wish I could contribute to that discussion though.

I also realized I think the way the idea is presented in the revival kind of curves the audience to be pissed if she loses. Sitting Bull says no man could be stood up by woman, I think he words it slightly different in earlier versions. I mean, it makes sense in the context of the revisal, but I think it's another reason for the version I know, I prefer that ending.

Don't ask me why I'm having a conversation with myself...

[elmore3003]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 6:43pm

I saw the revival with Peters and with McEntire, and Peters was in terrible voice with a "country" accent that was both unintelligible and an insult to Southwestern Ohio dialect: Annie Oakley was from the Cincinnati area. I heard from friends that her performance, which they thought bad in the beginning got progressively worse. SUNDAY IN THE PARK has been the only show I've seen her in that I didn't think the understudy would replace her in Act Two. McEntire was far superior and natural in the role.

I also think the creative team on the revival was wrong to make it a show within a show and turn "No Business Like Show Business" into the main number and metaphor for the production. I missed "Colonel Buffalo Bill" and "I'm A Bad Bad Man" a lot, but I was happy to see Tommy and Winnie's numbers put back in the piece.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 6:52pm

"What made "I'm an Indian, Too" so racist?"

"Racist? Please. Stop with the PC crap."

Oh come on.

I will admit that I am 1/32nd Canadian Indian, which means I'm basically not one of the members of the First Nations, but even I know that any song which has a BUM-dum-dum-dum BUM-dum-dum-dum BUM-dum-dum-dum underscoring is about as racist as playing tinkly music when Asians enter a scene or doing the damn scene in blackface.

It's just wrong by modern day standards, not because it's politically incorrect but because African Americans, Asians and Native People are not lesser folk who deserve to be ridiculed with clownish attitudes.

That was the situation in the 1940s, when Amos and Andy was the most popular radio show on the air and Mantan Moreland and Stepinfetchit (and Charlie Chan and Parkyakarkis and Mrs. Cohen for that matter) were still the average caucasian's view of "colored folks."

Hell, Ilsa asks "who is the boy playing the piano?" of Dooley Wilson, a man 20 years older than her, in Casablanca.

It was wrong then and it's wrong now. Just like "All Dark People" is excised from "Babes in Arms" it's time for "I'm An Indian, Too..." to gooooo...

Posted: 3/17/07 at 6:54pm

The PETA police also cleaned up some lyrics in "You Can't Get a Man with a Gun":

1946:

If I went to battle,
With someone's herd of cattle,
You'd have steak when the job was done.
But if I shot the herder,
They'd holler "bloody murder."

And you can't shoot a male,
In the tail,
Like a quail.
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.

If I shot a rabbit,
Some furrier would grab it,
For a coat that would warm someone.
But you can't shoot a lover,
And use him for a cover.
Oh, you can't get a man with a gun.


1999:

If I went to battle,
With someone's herd of cattle,
You'd have steak when the job was done.
But if I shot the herder,
They'd holler "bloody murder."

And you can't get a hug,
From a mug,
With a slug.
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.

I'm cool, brave and daring,
To see a lion glaring,
When I'm out with my Remington.
But a look from a mister,
Will raise a fever blister.
Oh you can't get a man with a gun.

[Jon]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 7:01pm

Bernadette played Annnie as if she was mentally challenged.

By the way, Cincinatti may not be the deep South, but it's just across the river from Kentucky.

[elmore3003]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 7:28pm

I'm from Cincinnati and I know Southwestern Ohio dialect. While it's not the most pleasant of accents, it is not the mumbled incoherent doggerel with which Ms Peters fooled someone and acquired a Tony Award.

[[e-mail]]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 8:15pm

I wonder if the Revival of South Pacific will be less racist (ie clean it up like this or just leave it "as is")

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 8:17pm

You could say The Life was racist in its depiction of pimps & prostitutes

[Jon]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 8:18pm

How is South Pacific racist? It's a show ABOUT racial prejudice.
Updated On: 3/17/07 at 08:18 PM

[Mr Roxy]

Posted: 3/17/07 at 8:20pm

The word racial is in it. Besides, you can make any show racist if you try hard enough & that is your goal.

[allofmylife]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 1:49am

South Pacific won the Pulitizer Prize for being a searing indictment of racism. But it is true, you can make anything hated if you really try hard enough.

Free speech became dangerous right after 9/11. Just as Bill Mahr. When a member of the administration says "Americans should be careful what they say from now on" that's as chilling and evil as the menace "South Pacific" is unmasking.

God, I'd love to see someone write a searing indictment of this administration in Washington.

Or, I'd just settle for some indictments.....

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 1:57am

Wow. But what was un-PC about the original You Can't Get A Man...lyrics?

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 5:33am

The word racial is in it. Besides, you can make any show racist if you try hard enough & that is your goal.

Right, because racism just doesn't exist.

[elmore3003]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 8:08am

There were, to my knowledge, no lyric changes in "You Can't Get A Man With A Gun," simply cuts. Who wrote the new lyrics to "No Business Like Show Business" wold be my inquiry.

[[e-mail]]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 12:19pm

South Pacific has much language in it that could be taken as racially offensive. Especially they language regarding "japs" and so forth.

[stonewall2]

Posted: 3/18/07 at 12:35pm

Most important difference- NO Ethel Merman, 'nuff said.......

[callmemadam1953]

Posted: 3/11/08 at 4:41pm

I was at the 66' revival. Absoulutley WONDERFULL!!! She never looked better and sounded fabulous. I treasure that moment for the rest of my life. I saw all of the revivals every where she went.

[dfwactor]

Posted: 3/11/08 at 5:31pm

More than anything, my problems with the revival (besides Bernadette) and agreeing with Elmore3003 here is the "Show within the Show" concept. Colonel Buffalo Bill is going to tell us how Annie got together with Frank.

Psssssssssssss.

That is all the air being let out of the balloon of dramatic tension. Play over.

Since we know how it ends, we never worry (yes, I know suspension of disbelief and all that, we shouldn't worry anyway, yada, yada, yada,)and it killed the story from the opening scene.

Subplots, relationships, political correctness, etc. There were many other problems but the biggest one is that we are told at the top of the show that it ends happily ever after. Or am I remembering it wrong?

The show needs to unfold in real time and not be a flashback or a story. Go back to the '66 and make your changes to make it more politically correct if you want. (I won't go so far as to say it was racist but it was a little childish and insensitive.)

Frankly, I thought it could do without Winnie and Tommy, but I understand they wanted to bring the white girl and the red boy together.

Oh, and Reba was terrific. Bernadette not so much.

[Jon]

Posted: 3/11/08 at 6:06pm

I kinda like the song "Bad, Bad Man", but when you think about it, it is a song in which Frank brags about being a serial date rapist.

[bk]

Posted: 3/11/08 at 6:10pm

Do the show or don't do the show - it's that simple. If people cannot understand CONTEXT then they should stay away from any show pre NOW. Annie Get Your Gun is a classic musical and it didn't need to be fixed in any way, shape, or form. Anne Get Your Gun, while written in the 40s, doesn't take place then - it takes place long before and it most certainly could have been racist because that's what the country was when this story takes place - but it doesn't go down that road and it is NOT what the show is about. I'm so bored of people who think they should just change art because someone might get their little 2008 feathers ruffled. Context is everything - explain it in a program note, make a speech before the show if you feel you have to pander to complete idiots who cannot see past their own time - but don't mess with the art. The End.