West Side Story Question- Page 2

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:15pm

That was very interesting wickedrent, thank you for posting that. I had never even though of that connection between Something's Coming and Maria other than the lyrics. I hadn't even noticed the tritones used in every song... Where is it in "Cool"?


I always wonder if these kind of analytical nuances are intentional or not.

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:16pm

Oh, and yes, Riff is the best part in the show (imo)

Cherish it.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/14/07 at 11:38pm

Hehe, Bernstein attributed Cool, along with the Prologue, to where he started realizing he was using the tritone.

Anyway, Cool is all tritones, think of the instrumental opening...everything up until the vocal starts. It's umm...I'm in clarinet world, so that's a different key, but a-flats and d's, b's and f's, and then b's and f's next to a-flat's and d's. And the instrumental underscore during the vocal in the bari sax, which is hard to hear, is also all tritones. And yeah, all over the song.

I think when you're dealing with the "geniuses," a lot of the analytical nuances are intentional...or...they don't realize what they're doing at first, but...I think Bernstein knew the connections between the lowered 7ths and use of hemiolas and tone clusters, the relations of keys of C's and A's...the fact that all of Tony and Maria's songs are in sharp keys (except Maria, but Larry Kert once said that Bernstein lowered the song half a step because he couldn't reach the highest note), and the jet/shark/gang songs are in flats, that has to be somewhat conscious. But here's what Bernstein's said about the tritones, indicating if it wasn't intentional, then it wasn't conscious:

"The three notes pervade the whole piece, inverted, done backwards. I didn't do this all on purpose. It seemed to come out in 'Cool' and as the gang whistle in 'Prologue.' The same three notes."

But the tritone is just taken to another level, in terms of ending the piece. The final notes, the somewhere melody, which was taken off the Maria melody (i-a), is played again, but the bass response played at the same time is an F-sharp, while the final, repeated notes of the Some-where are C's. C and F-sharp are tritones. Combining the lowered 7th, the melody that starts in Something's Coming, goes to Maria, Balcony Scene, then Somewhere, is combined with the tritone. How amazingly poetic, huh?

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/15/07 at 4:23pm

Wow, the first 2 notes of "Cool" are tritones, I completely missed that


How about "I Feel Pretty"

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/15/07 at 5:55pm

Hmm, I Feel Pretty's a tough one. Granted, I only have bits of pieces of the vocal score, not the entire, and just my instrument part, so I'm going on a bit of a stretch here but the accompanying woodwind parts to the main melody, at least in the intermission part of the music kind of have a tritone relation...they end on a G-sharp twice in a row, and then end on a D, its tritone relative.

Same thing with the woodwind accompanyment during the "have you met my good friend Maria" part, during the "she's the one who is in...,' the accompanying run begins on a C and ends on a very accented F-sharp, tritones.

Yeah, it's a stretch I know. But many of the books I've read cited I Feel Pretty as the worst song in the show...not to say it's bad at all, they said it would probably be the best in many, many other scores, and that just says miles about how wonderful the score is.

But good job,I'm pretty sure you picked the hardest song or me to find them in

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 2:16am

I never found "A Boy Like That" interesting. It is perfect for the context of the show if you watch it in its entirety, but as a stand alone song, it just doesn't cut the cake for me. To me, it seems like the only number that Bernstein got a tad lazy on. Nothing leads into the next section. In my opinion, I Feel Pretty is just as good a song if not greater, since it sounds like a complete song (though it features Sondheim's worst lyrics), as Bernstein puts obvious thought into how each section could lead to the next. "A Boy Like That", however, seems like creative snippets, rather than a song as full as set by the standard of the other songs such as "Something's Coming" or "Maria"

Updated On: 6/16/07 at 02:16 AM

[bbonstage]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 11:43am

WSS is one of the most brilliant pieces of American musical theatre. Hands down.

A Boy Like That can be so powerful- I remember being in tears every night I watched that song. However, I can imagine that out of context (if you don't know the story) it doesn't hit as hard. But as is the same with any song really...BUT I would never call Bernstein LAZY for it. Just because the song requires acting and doesn't rely on notes alone doesn't make it bad.

I agree with an above comment- if you're serious about theatre, be wary if it's not the original version. Unless it's at a good theatre, doing someone else's version besides Jerome Robbins could screw YOUR perception of WSS, and trust me, you need to know just how amazing this show truly is.

I could go on for days.....

[Dollypop]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 11:47am

>>"Yes! Rent the movie. It's brilliant."<<

I don't know if I agree anymore.

When the film was first released it was certainly brilliant and people were weeping in theaters. Now, when I show it in class in conjunction with ROMEO AND JULIET, the kids laugh at the dancing and the singing.

I don't know whether times have changed or I just have the most miserable group of kids in the world.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 12:21pm

Wow, I couldn't disagree more re: A Boy Like That. It's brilliant, and I certainly don't think Bernstein was lazy in writing that.

Now, as I previously stated, WSS is characterized by 4 major musical techniques: tritones, lowered 7ths, hemiolas, and tone clusters. These are all introduced in the prologue, and with each "violent" song, they become more pronounced to sound uglier. This hits the peak in A Boy Like That. The song has large amounts of tone clusters and tritones. In fact, the tone clusters consisting of major/minor triads that have been subtly in the instruments throughout the show are finally featured in the vocal melody. The D-natural juxtaposed with the D-flat in both "broth-er" and "a noth-er" emphasize the difference between major and minor. The dissonant chords heard in the beginning of the Prologue (F naturals played against F sharps and E naturals) also come to fruition in the vocal melody: "ONE of your own KIND, STICK to your own KIND."

And in terms of A Boy Like That into I Have A Love, that's also brilliant. The songs are based on altering a melody. Maria's portion, I Have A Love is derived from Anita's earlier melody, A Boy Like That, except the melody is now in a major key. It is appropriate that the idea of death is in a minor key, while the idea of love is in a major key. The accompanyment also changes, to almost hymn-like chords from the vengeance they play in the beginning. That's a big reason you wouldn't realize it's the same melody. But just how genius--think of how quickly Maria gets Anita to change her mind, when Anita's that pissed. She does so by throwing Anita's argument back in her face--by using HER melody to prove her point, and that is why Anita so quickly changes her mind, and that's how the audience can buy that she does.

So I wouldn't exactly say nothing leads into the next section :-P

bbonstage, you could totally be my new best friend!

Hmm, that's a good point Dollypop. As such a loyal fan of the original...well cast recording, since I've never seen the original production, but with what I know about it, I myself don't find the movie to be as great as everyone else does, just because of how it takes away from the original version. But still, on its own, it's pretty brilliant.

But I think it's definitely that times have changed. Think of how they try to make musical movies these days--with an excuse for the characters to sing, like Chicago, or most of Dreamgirls, becauser audiences today have trouble buying pure musical--people randomly bursting into song, etc. Which really really sucks.

So when they see WSS, not even the singing, but when they're supposed to see these tough gangs fighting and they see them doing ballet dances to each other, they find that ridiculous. My sister felt the same way. She could buy it on stage, but not on the screen on the actual streets of New York.

I don't think just because perceptions have changed, that could take away from the brilliance of the film (which still took away some of the brilliance of the original production..)

[MimiLovesRoger]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 2:48pm

Riff is a great character. Go for it.

(Slightly OT, but I was just cast as 'Anybodys' in WSS! Amd my mom is Anita-at our local community theatre)

[Weez]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 5:17pm

>>"Yes! Rent the movie. It's brilliant."<<

I don't know if I agree anymore.

When the film was first released it was certainly brilliant and people were weeping in theaters. Now, when I show it in class in conjunction with ROMEO AND JULIET, the kids laugh at the dancing and the singing.

I don't know whether times have changed or I just have the most miserable group of kids in the world.

We're theatre fans, I think we'll be okay with the dancing and singing.

[bbonstage]

Posted: 6/16/07 at 9:28pm

YES. We totally could be new best friends, I love that someone else is as passionate and well read on such a brilliant piece of work. The school I went to just put on a production of WSS, and as badly as I wanted it to be good... it simply wasn't. There was NO MOMENTUM, it was all just slow slow slow. Nothing reads that way, no build up, no suspense, just beat, beat, beat. Boring. America was a throw away. Dance at the Gym, forgettable. How sad!!!

That's why I say to be wary as to whether or not it's original. I don't just mean choreography, but intention as well. It was done that way for a reason, and it's brilliant for those reasons specifically. I was lucky enough to be working with a team that was solely dedicated to the original, and therefore had one of the most amazing experiences of my life doing it. But if it doesn't matter to you, and you just want the credit, who cares. Just think of what it COULD mean...

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/19/07 at 6:17pm

Speaking of WSS, I just got the OBC recording in the mail, and I realize why bernstein was upset. It is so much easier to listen to.

The only song I like better on the movie soundtrack though is "Jet Song" In the OBC, Riff sounds like an old man, and it's too slow.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/19/07 at 8:36pm

West Side Story is a musical that should just stop being produced. Nobody seems to have any interest in doing it as anything more than a copy of what came before, same choreography and everything. It's become artistically bankrupt. Apart from that, time has caused what was once biting social commentary to become a ridiculous string of non-threatening gangs and goofy slang. It's done. Unless someone has the guts to rework it completely, it's run its course and become a relic.

Stone me if you want, but that's what I feel.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 12:47am

I guess I can see where you're coming from Mark, especially considering I guess you're used to the soundtrack, so I can't understand coming from that angle. But I'll never enjoy the Jet Song from the movie, mainly because they took someone who could sing (Russ Tamblyn) and dubbed him for absolutely no reason what-so-ever. Some dude was on a dubbing spree. (BTW, another huge problem i have with the movie soundtrack--dubbing. I mean, if you're going to dub Tony, isn't it kind of pathetic that the dubber still doesn't sound anywhere near as amazing as the one on the OBC?)

Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "easier to listen to?" I'm thinking of a couple of things it could mean and I just want to clarify which one you meant.

" Nobody seems to have any interest in doing it as anything more than a copy of what came before, same choreography and everything. "

Well, you know what Edmund, I don't think we can really blame people for not having any interest in getting sued (as the Robbins' estate dictates on this piece that in any professional production, Robbins' choreography must be used.) I know that wasn't your point, just had to tease that yes, people aren't interested in breaking the "law"

*stones Edmund*

I...kind of get what you're saying, and I know changes to the material are being discussed and the very thought of that drives me mad, but still Edmund...put yourself in the place of a 21 year old who worships Bernstein and WSS and is yet to see a live professional production of it. Do you know what I would give, how much it would mean to me to see this back on Broadway?

And there are some aspects of it that I honestly believe will never be outdated--the attempted "rape" of Anita and the general reason that the message never got delivered to Tony, or messed up. I still think that's shocking.

But I don't think the creators intended for the gangs to be that scary or that threatening. Many of the members were written comically, and we're allowed to see into the "souls" of the members and understand why they are in this gang, so they're never presented as people we should be "threatened" by.

And I think the sentiment behind Gee Officer Krupke has never been more appropriate than in today's society.

Posted: 6/20/07 at 4:17am

The JAY recording suffers from some of the same probs as other JAY complete recordings of scores (kinda overly slow and careful tempo to some of the songs for instance) but is worth having (and like all their recordings is especially invaluable if you need to rehearse with all the dance music and don'thave access to ap ianist all the time, etc)--but definetly start with the original recording--just a great cast album that still holds up.

I love the dream ballet as originally staged (or at least as reconstructed in the 1998 West End revival which I believe was completely faithful to the original) but can sorta see some of Robbins' hesitancy--it's VERY moving but also relies on some older style musical theatre techniques that I think he felt he should be beyond by then.

Not to cause a fitht but was it the first time a dream ballet used the same performers? the circus ballet in Carousel had the same Louise--but she was cast as a dancer (and it wasn't one of the top leads)...

Oneother reason I think the dream ballet is often cut though, unfortunately, is cuz it wasn't in the movie--so they think people won't miss it. (the only major improvement the movie made IMHO--although I do prefer Cool being later in the show--was making america a number between the guys and girls, but that would probably give the guys too much dancing to do live)

I am always on the fence about whether such an iconic, organic theatrical piece as WSS should be revised in revivals or kept close to its original--I mean much of the dance music was even written to these specific steps, not written before (though this is true of much dance music of course--going back to Tchakovsky's ballets and they are always re-choreographed). While the leads when Is aw it in Londonw eren't fantastic I was just thrilled to see the origianl production (i believe a version close to the original production toured for about 2 years in the late 90s in N america too).

Still surely Broadway will do SOMETHING to commemorate it's 50th anniversary??
E
Updated On: 6/20/07 at 04:17 AM

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 9:28am

I saw the North Carolina School of the Arts production when it came through Chicago a few weeks ago, and it was absolutely stunning. It was the first production I'd seen where all the kids actually looked like kids. It was the best production of the show I've ever seen.

Posted: 6/20/07 at 6:46pm

bump

[bbonstage]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 7:05pm

I too saw that production and had endless problems with it.

Of course they looked like kids, they are kids.

It had the worst pacing of any musical I've ever seen to have such creative minds participating. Nothing made sense, or was hardly effective with such a slow pace. Not many artists truly committed either, there was so much BS... I'm sorry, I don't mean to bash it, as it was a school production, but I felt there was either a huge problem in the director's chair or the actors just weren't willing to go there.

Anybody's, however, played by Tammy Carasco, was outstanding.

[EdmundOG]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 7:11pm

I certainly see what you're saying, WRQ, and it's something I've struggled with. After all, stage isn't like film, where you can watch the original over and over. But still, if after fifty years, we're still doing the same dances, it makes me a little sad. And there's so much meaning in the show that gets lost now.

You had it exactly right when you said "the sentiment behind Gee Officer Krupke has never been more appropriate than in today's society." But how much more clear would that sentiment be if instead of ending on a silly pun, it had ended with the words Sondheim wrote but was censored out of saying? If the anger at authority the kids had been blowing off came out of them with "Gee, Officer Krupke, F*CK YOU!" But it'll never happen, because every production is just like every other. Oh well.

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 8:37pm

Re the North Carolina production, I thought the Anita was weak and I was rather indifferent to Anybodys, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it. I wish the tempos were a little faster, but they seem to be in line with the OBCR (whose tempo I always found slow to begin with), but I thought it was a highly enjoyable. I was actually at the open dress, which seemed to go off without a hitch. Maybe there were problems with the actual performance.

[MarkRascati]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 8:52pm

<<< Would you mind elaborating on what you mean by "easier to listen to?" I'm thinking of a couple of things it could mean and I just want to clarify which one you meant. >>>

Sure.

First of all, Russ Tamblyn does a far better job of interpreting the dialoge between verses. Second of all, while supposedly Riff is explaining to the Jets what being a Jet means, the other Jets sing along, which, imo, takes away from Riff being the leader of the song, and the arrangement with the solos on the soundtrack make much more sense and are much more, you guessed it, easy to listen to.

And I completely agree with the dubbing. And I heard the guy who played Tony could actually sing, he was just a bass and the part called for a tenor, obviously.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 9:01pm

Lots to respond to:

Eric, I too have..."seen" the recreation of the original staging in a mid 90s tour that starred Marcy Harriel as Maria (she was quite good), (hope you know what I mean by "seen"...it's a rare find, but so worth it!) Unfortunately, I don't remember it that clearly...I remember thinking that the dancing/action could have been improved during the "Schirzo," I was surprised that they just ran, trying to find "somewhere." I mean, I guess it makes sense, but the difference between...me playing it (never actually in a production, both cut it), and how it was staged was just very different. Still, I think the ballet and "Somewhere" into the nightmare is still brilliant...even though Carol Lawrence nearly broke her neck during rehearsal, I love the fact that Tony and Maria are carried off and that's how they can't be together--perfectly acting out the situation, that their "friends," situations are forcing them apart. A great abstract.

Re: first time leads got to dance, that's just something Carol Lawrence had said in an interview, I don't think I've seen any other confirmation. Still, I think it is what you were saying, it was probably the first time two LEADS were allowed to dance the dream ballet.

I agree that the movie does do well in placing the boys in "America"--in our high school's production, we too added the boys in. I don't think it's too much dancing, the Jets dance "Cool" and the Sharks don't have to, and that's one of the hardest dances in the show, certainly the Sharks could handle "America."

In terms of the switching of Cool and Krupke, I'm not entirely sure about my feelings. I know...for the MOVIE, it definitely worked, and had to be that way. I guess I generally agree it might be better that way in the show, but I did read a surprising argument for the original placing. It was very convincing...but maybe not that much if I can't remember it...but I remember thinking the person had a point, I swear!

Eric, very very very unfortunately, I will be terribly surprised if anything is done to commemorate WSS' 50th Anniversary. The same debate we're having here about reviving or revising it has caused such disagreement that everyone won't come together to do it one way or another. A shame.

bbonstage, maybe it's like...we (I hope you too) see that the original production is much better than the movie...but those who see the movie without seeing the original production think it's great. Maybe that's why kringas loved the production, and you didn't. Maybe us WSS fanatics are so...we know what it could be, and if it's not up to par, we'll find it worse than people who aren't familiar with the original...does that make sense? I certainly agree that WSS can be heavily ****ed up if people take it on who do not have the talent to perform it, but maybe so-so productions aren't as bad as we would think they are.

"But still, if after fifty years, we're still doing the same dances, it makes me a little sad."

And I still shoot back with, it makes me a lot sad that I am yet to see a live, professional production of this masterpiece, the way it was done. :-P And again, in terms of doing the same dances...lawsuits. And really...is there any other show that dance is so imperative to the storytelling? Could you really conceive of just how bad a revisal could be? How amazing it would have to be to even live up to the original, let alone surpass it? It's just that perfect, IMO.

"And there's so much meaning in the show that gets lost now."

Wait, I want to clarify...are you saying what you did that what held meaning then doesn't know, or that productions today don't convey that meaning? Big difference. I'd of course argue with the former, but am not in a position to argue with the latter.

"If the anger at authority the kids had been blowing off came out of them with "Gee, Officer Krupke, F*CK YOU!"

And if the gangs were fighting, they wouldn't be doing ballet turns on the street. It's all part of the suspension of belief, of the particular musical language, IMO. Krupke is a complete vaudeville number. And the silly pun works in terms of ending the vaudeville number. I think changing little things like that pulls the audience out of the suspension of belief, and suddenly just everything like that has to be changed, and I've heard of productions that have tried to do that, that have just been awful!

"because every production is just like every other. Oh well"

And I still stay I'll take that any day over a much lesser, different production. Maybe I regard West Side too highly, but I honestly cannot conceive of a revisal that would be better than the original, or even as good. I can't.

[wickedrentq]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 9:38pm

No Mark, lol. You didn't say the Jet Song was "easier to listen to," you said the OBC as a whole was "easier to listen to." That's what I was asking about

One other thing I wanted to add, decided the other was long enough. Found some more good text about the ballet, this was where I read something (be it brief) about Robbins not loving it:

"It is unfortunate that both choreography and stage directions paint the lovers' dream as a sort of paradise, for this is quite untrue to the tragic plot and degenerates the pathetic loss at the end. There is no reason why the lovers desever such a paradise, and no audience would feel pity at their failure to find one. The pity is rather that they are denied the simplest joy, to be left alone in their love. Tony's dying words, 'They won't let us be," express as a negative the source of the pathos much better than the utopia of the ballet. And yet, to express somehow in dance this simpler freedom for Tony and Maria would be also be insufficient, for that would leave the cause of this social tragedy unchecked. It would mean an escape, not a resolution. The gang characters must be included as an expiation of the tragic flaw, but including them falsifies the lovers' role in the story. It truly is a dramatic dilemma, which is perhaps why the ballet has not been well received by critics. Even Robbins himself, reflecting on the ballet in 1980 doubted its purpose."

(For the record, the book then goes on to explain how thank goodness, Bernstein's music is quite faithful to the tragic plot and so requires the performance of the whole sequence--Somewhere speaks of peace and quiet and open air, not utopia, and of course, all the intertwining of melodies and motifs that go into Somewhere. Just wanted another reason to praise Bernstein).

Hmm, that interview is from a Times article, I'm going to use my college library to see if I can find that article, then I'll add what that says.

(Heh, as I'm searching, I'm watching AFI's 100 greatest films, and WSS just came on, as 51).

Found it! Ah, it's from '80, of course about the WSS revival that year...

Good call on Robbins' feelings, Mark! (maybe you read this article, lol): "Although the show made a lot of innovations in stagecraft, it had its feet in the old musicals. Some people may think the dream ballet looks silly, but it was a convention of its time. i don't know if I'd leave it in now."

Hmm, here's some other interesting tidbits from this interview.

Because someone mentioned how much the specific music was written for the specific movements: "Lenny and I had much more of a working collaboration than Mr. Balanchine and Stravinski. We would often work in the same studio and fuse each other on. He'd play something and I'd do some movement to it. We'd feed each other back and forth. It was very exciting."

On changing or not changing WSS: "I haven't attempted to update the work. It is a period piece. We might have made many changes, but the show is a product of its time. We're at a point now where revivals are not merely substitutes for new shows but can be seen as legitimate repertory."

On the differences between Broadway dancers of the 50s and 1980: "Broadway dancers in the 50's had much more stronger ballet technique. There weren't as many ballet companies, so dancing gravitated towards Broadway. It was nothing then to ask for two pirouettes. Today if you ask for two, you lose more than than three-quarters of the people who audition. The dancers also had difficulty in mastering the highly controlled jazz style and putting across the street emotions of the 50's. These kids didn't the mambo, the lindy, or even the cha-cha. They're used to a whole different kind of movement, more African, more pelvic. We had to start from scratch."

And I have to add an amazing quote from Bernstein's diary when Robbins first contacted him about the project. He explains how well the original East Side Story Jewish/Catholic fits Romeo and Juliet, and then says: "But it's all much less important than the bigger idea of making a musical that tells a tragic story in musical comedy terms, never falling into the 'operatic' trap. Can it succeed? It hasn't yet in our country. I'm excited. If it can work, it's a first."

It sure was Damnit, wish I foudn this earlier, I could have used this article in my paper. Boo!

[Kringas]

Posted: 6/20/07 at 10:05pm

bbonstage, maybe it's like...we (I hope you too) see that the original production is much better than the movie...but those who see the movie without seeing the original production think it's great. Maybe that's why kringas loved the production, and you didn't

I'm confused here. Are you talking about the actual original production? Like the one in 1957? Did bbonstage see that? I only ask because I don't understand how my enjoyment of the production become conflated with seeing the movie.